France to ban the Burqa? Is this secular?

[teapot]

Perhaps you have worked somewhere where an ID card with photograph was required. Are you suggesting that for religious reasons a photograph with a bag over the head should suffice ?

I know that guys have turned up with Darth Vader masks on for their drivers' licence photos, citing the burka-wearers as justification.

[Trampas]

How do you read that from my post?

"I could appreciate an argument against masks etc. that hide your face, for various secular reasons"

But you seem to have decided that the legislation is for "non-secular" reasons, in which case motivation is all in your opinion regardless of the sheer lunacy of ID's with bags over the head.

[Demotruk]

But you seem to have decided that the legislation is for "non-secular" reasons, in which case motivation is all in your opinion regardless of the sheer lunacy of ID's with bags over the head.

A ban on masks in certain situations, which would include a burqa, for various reasons such as needing to be seen for the sake of security, for identification purposes, because it could impair your vision while driving etc. is something I could agree with. However that's not what this is, it's a ban on one specific item of clothing, and it's not just for specific situations. And the reasons are specifically for liberty:

"It will not be welcome on French soil," he said." We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity."

Mr Gerin believes the burka "amounts to a breach of individual freedom on our national territory".

BBC NEWS | Europe | Sarkozy stirs French burka debate

Now, these are things that I very much agree with promoting. I don't think people should disconnect themselves from society by hiding behind a veil. However, there is an inherent contradiction in banning people from wearing an item of clothing in the interest of their 'freedom' or 'liberty'.

[Lazarus]

If this ban on wearing burkas is enforced, there will be mayham. People are going to die. So, no I don't agree with the State interfering in any religious matter, as I don't believe that religion should interfer with the State.

The one thing I do notice about Muslim women conservatively dressed is that they tend to wear very, very decorative shoes, which makes me sad in a way because they still like to look nice when out in society.

In Saudi, Western women have to wear kaftan type clothing, long sleeved, but it is only on Fridays that one is obliged to cover one's hair, not head, as that is their holy day.

[IvoShandor]

Any French Muslims I've talked to who are against it, aren't really against it because they themselves or female members of their famiis wear it, but because they see it as an attack on their culture and a further reminder of their difference to "les français" (which has become the synonyme for "white" even though most Arab Muslims in France hold French citizenship). I think it would be a little like if the British Government had out lawed the colour green or the drinking of Guinness for Irish immigrants back in the day, in the context of being made to feel punished for being different.

I think that is an extremely odd analogy.Surely anybody can see that covering your face is a different order of behaviour from wearing a particular colour or drinking a particular beverage, neither of which affects your ability to function as a social being in the Big World. If people do see it as an attack on their culture, surely that an indictment of them that they want to make their stand of defiance on such a misogynistic practice. The cultural relativists would tut tut about this but, the fact is some cultural practices are bad, full stop, and if the sensitivities of ethnic minorities are offended, then too bad. If they wanted to defend FGM or, say,foot-binding, they would get short shrift and I see this as similar.Trying to use something that is bad to start with as a symbol of resistance against discrimination or whatever is a bad idea. If female subordination is part of your culture then it's time that culture went into the rubbish bin.

If this ban on wearing burkas is enforced, there will be mayham. People are going to die. So, no I don't agree with the State interfering in any religious matter, as I don't believe that religion should interfer with the State.

I doubt that very much,there will be grumbling, demonstrations and threats...but it will not end in bloodshed, I'll wager.
This is my point that this is not a religious matter.It is an archaic, repressive cultural norm that has become conflated with religion. I would compare it with Amish refusing to wear buttons on their clothes or-less harmlessly-with extremist Mormons and polygamy.

A ban on masks in certain situations, which would include a burqa, for various reasons such as needing to be seen for the sake of security, for identification purposes, because it could impair your vision while driving etc. is something I could agree with. However that's not what this is, it's a ban on one specific item of clothing, and it's not just for specific situations. And the reasons are specifically for liberty:

A ban on the only non-technical and non-practical garment that covers the face and for whom that covering is its sole rationale...sorry for the bad phrasing. I know its hard to extract the practicalities from the libertarian explanation,but the fact is that they are bound up together, as the Burnley case showed.