France to ban the Burqa? Is this secular?

[Interista]

While I personally find the full face cover to be at best creepy, at worst outright subversive (certainly when worn in a non-Muslim majority country), I have a few problems with these 'ban the burka' campaigns.

Firstly, just how big an issue is it in any European country? How many French (or Dutch, or British) women wear these garments? I don't know for sure, but I doubt it is anything more than a tiny minority. Most Muslim women in France don't speak Arabic and dress in much the same way as other French women. My point is that paying so much attention to this issue smacks of populist scaremongering rather than a measured reaction to a genuine societal problem.

Secondly, bans should, IMHO, be avoided only where no other solution is possible. While a good case can be made for banning face veils in certain places - airports, banks, schools etc - an outright ban is likely to increase the sense of victimhood and alienation felt by many Muslims, including those who would never dream of covering their faces.

Finally, much is made of how this garment is 'forced' on women by men. Sometimes, no doubt, it is. However, we cannot assume this is true in all, or even, most cases. I personally know of many women who tell me they cover their faces out of personal choice - and I have no reason to disbelieve them. Same for all this talk of the veil being a symbol of 'submission'. According to who? "Submission" is in the eye of the beholder. And since when has being 'submissive' been a crime? You could make a case that women who take their husband's name on marriage are being 'submissive'. Do we ban that too?

[johnfás]

On Radio 1 now

[femmefatale]

While I personally find the full face cover to be at best creepy, at worst outright subversive (certainly when worn in a non-Muslim majority country), I have a few problems with these 'ban the burka' campaigns.

Firstly, just how big an issue is it in any European country? How many French (or Dutch, or British) women wear these garments? I don't know for sure, but I doubt it is anything more than a tiny minority. Most Muslim women in France don't speak Arabic and dress in much the same way as other French women. My point is that paying so much attention to this issue smacks of populist scaremongering rather than a measured reaction to a genuine societal problem.

Secondly, bans should, IMHO, be avoided only where no other solution is possible. While a good case can be made for banning face veils in certain places - airports, banks, schools etc - an outright ban is likely to increase the sense of victimhood and alienation felt by many Muslims, including those who would never dream of covering their faces.

Finally, much is made of how this garment is 'forced' on women by men. Sometimes, no doubt, it is. However, we cannot assume this is true in all, or even, most cases. I personally know of many women who tell me they cover their faces out of personal choice - and I have no reason to disbelieve them. Same for all this talk of the veil being a symbol of 'submission'. According to who? "Submission" is in the eye of the beholder. And since when has being 'submissive' been a crime? You could make a case that women who take their husband's name on marriage are being 'submissive'. Do we ban that too?

I have seen a similar garment (with just an eye slit) being worn quite frequently in London. Most Muslim women do appear to wear something slightly less extreme. However, just because it is worn by a small section of one community, does not mean that a ban/restriction is any less justified.

You mentioned women you know who are quite happy to cover their face. Why do you think this is? Do you think it's because they have decided that it's more modest, devout, convenient, practical? I would imagine it's more likely that they do this because they have been made to feel that it's expected of them. Because it has become a norm and expectation in some cultures does not make it right.

It's not so much a symbol of submission as it is a complete denial of the person, turning them into an invisible nothing.

[Mercurial]

I think it’s appalling that any government should dictate what an individual can or cannot wear on the basis that it is “degrading”. It’s just substituting one set of paternalistic restrictions for another. Liberalism is supposed to be about promoting individual autonomy, which means giving people choices, not forcing them to adhere to your particular conception of what behaviour is or is not degrading to them.

[Interista]

You mentioned women you know who are quite happy to cover their face. Why do you think this is? Do you think it's because they have decided that it's more modest, devout, convenient, practical?

Dunno about convenient or practical, but yes, many women I know do believe that covering their faces is a religious duty, or at least a sign of piety. Now, we can argue that such beliefs are absurd, and as a non-religious person I'd be inclined to agree, but since when has it been OK to ban garments because the thinking behind them might be absurd to certain people?

I would imagine it's more likely that they do this because they have been made to feel that it's expected of them.

Yeah, but don't we all dress according to our society's expectations? I don't think Muslim women are any less intelligent than other women. Again, I repeat: Some women really DO choose to cover their faces. The fact that we might find such a choice bizarre does not invalidate it as a choice.

It's not so much a symbol of submission as it is a complete denial of the person, turning them into an invisible nothing.

That's your interpretation of it. And again, much as I personally loathe the full face cover, I accept that not everyone sees it as I or you do. I also believe that outside of the few countries where the veil is the norm, wearing it indicates an unwillingness to engage with society. I just don't see how banning it is going to achieve anything other than whip up hysteria from all sides.

[IrishTom]

VOA News - France Moves to Impose Ban on Burqa

I could understand if there was an argument to ban items of clothing that hide your face, or about wearing clothes like this while driving, but this seems to be more about banning a specific religious/cultural dress. I certainly don't like the values that the burqa represents, but isn't this a very authoritarian solution, and not really a secular one?

i think it is a great move by sarkozy and will serve to help muslim women integrate into french society, it is obviously an oppressive dress sense that is forced on these women by an oppressive religion and oppressive men.

[IrishTom]

Every culture has its norms. I trust that yours includes keeping your trousers on in public

Banning the burqa would imprison some women in their homes. Wearing the burqa doesn't imply terrorism any more than wearing a hoody makes you a criminal.

I admire the secular character of French education and society generally, but this imo is not about secularity, there is no logic behind it It seems to me to be a concession to anti-Islamic prejudice.

well then dont you think this raises an all together different issue ie islam is an oppressive religion and you the very one defending it at every oppurtunity, oh how foolish you truly are.

[Mercurial]

What if a non-Muslim wanted to wear a burka or some other covering? Shouldn’t she be allowed express herself?

[swansandtyphus]

While I feel offended to see a woman in modern enlightened 21st century society believing that she must wear a garment that covers her from head to toe with just a slit or a grill to see through, it is not my business telling her not to do so.

It is only my business when non-Muslim women or Muslim women who wish to wear headscarfs instead of the burqa are forced or threatened by religious bigots to waer the burqa or else.

In a free democratic society it is not our business to tell people what they can and cannot wear or any other behaviour if it does not drastically infringe on the rights of others.

I hate to see beautiful young women deliberately dyeing their hair black, multilating themselves with multiple piercings and tattoes and dressing like medieval witches just as much as I despise seeing women degrading themselves by wearing the burqa.

But that is ultimately not my business if it is their personal choice.

[darkhorse]

While I feel offended to see a woman in modern enlightened 21st century society believing that she must wear a garment that covers her from head to toe with just a slit or a grill to see through, it is not my business telling her not to do so.

It is only my business when non-Muslim women or Muslim women who wish to wear headscarfs instead of the burqa are forced or threatened by religious bigots to waer the burqa or else.

In a free democratic society it is not our business to tell people what they can and cannot wear or any other behaviour if it does not drastically infringe on the rights of others.

I hate to see beautiful young women deliberately dyeing their hair black, multilating themselves with multiple piercings and tattoes and dressing like medieval witches just as much as I despise seeing women degrading themselves by wearing the burqa.

But that is ultimately not my business if it is their personal choice.

The issue is one of security. No-one should be allowed to have their face covered in public - man or woman. A man should not be allowed wear a balaclava or similar and a woman should not be allowed wear a burqa or similar.