Ahmadinejad 'wins' again

[Mazzy Maz]

Social and Political changes happening in Iran and other places are due to access to the internet.Be advised that this will start to be a regular occurrance over the next decade or so.

How on earth did social and political change ever happen before the invention of tinterweb? Mobile phones I suppose. Oh and thanks for the warning.

[IvoShandor]

This is nothing in comparison to the loathing of Israel by all.

They talk up a storm against Israel. But that's all it is. It sounds good, plays well with the masses and allows them to let off steam. But these states often recognize that other Islamic states are even more dangerous to them than Israel. Who fought the biggest war in the Middle East, dwarfing the Israeli wars? Iran and Iraq. Who did Iraq invade? Kuwait.Who fought alongside the Americans in the first Gulf War? Syria, Saudi Arabia, the gulf states. Who fought the biggest civil wars? Lebanon:Palestinian against Druze against Maronite against Shia against Sunni etc; Jordan:Bedouin against palestinian;Syria:Secular Goverment against Islamists; Iraq:Sunni against Shia and Kurd;Islamists against secularists. And so on. For people whio "loathe" Israel more than anything, they display a good appetite for fighting each other.

[oceanclub]

Good piece from Michael Totten here:

Commentary Blog Archive The Third Worldists Are Back

I will never forget the similar line peddled about Lebanese in March and April of 2005. I was there when the “March 14” revolution was in full swing, and I heard from even some Western expats who lived in Beirut that the demonstrators were mostly liberal and “bourgeois” Christians from the “Gucci” class.

It was wrong, and it was contemptible. What ignited that revolution was the assassination of a Sunni prime minister. Around a million people – more than a fourth of the entire country – demonstrated in Martyr’s Square and demanded the ouster of the occupying Syrian military dictatorship. There aren’t a million liberal “bourgeois” Christians in all of Lebanon. In any case, the Christians as a community have proven themselves far less reliably anti-Syrian and anti-Hezbollah than the Sunnis.

The Westerners I’ve met personally who believe and write this sort of thing suffer from a condescending Third Worldism and a barely concealed contempt for Middle Eastern people whom they don’t think are “authentic.” Arabs and Muslims (and presumably now Persians) aren’t supposed to hate terrorists or yearn for democracy like Americans do. They’re supposed to be in thrall to “resistance” and every other morally and politically bankrupt ideology that attracted the afflicted expats to the region in the first place.

P.

[cactusflower]

The CIA, the Bilderbergers, the Illuminati and the every secret American,western,imperial and capitalist grouping that you've never heard of, but who are controlling our minds at every opportunity and are totally responsible for all ills in this world!.

The fact is that everybody is leaving and has left Iran the hell alone for the last 20 years - but our resident Yankee hating community cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the fact that Iran is a theocratic dictatorship and its obvious to anybody to that the these "elections" were rigged to the high heaven by a regime that is terrified of its people , particularly its young people who want to be able to make their own choices - I've been to Iran 3 times since 1992 - admittedly the last time was a brief visit to Tehran in 2003 - the frustration with the Islamic regime was palpable even then - the revolution has gone completely sour and even nationalism and wrapping themselves in the flag is not going to save the hardliners now.

Fair play to Obama - the hardliners in Tehran were counting on him continuing bushes axis of evil nonsense and allowing them to use the Great Satan and threat to their country tripe to appease and seduce the masses into continuing their support.

The masses dont want nuclear weapons ,more constant droning about the Iran-Iraq war and the marthyrs- they want to be able to use the internet, go out when they feel like it,wearing what they want and with who they want without getting the crap beaten out them for doing so in public - thats what this about - and the lefties here would be better off acknowledging that fact rather reaching desperately for ridiculous western "plots" which is just making them sound silly.

As I've posted regularly against NWO claptrap, your attempt to answer for me is appreciated, but widely off the mark.

If you are suggesting that there isn't US interference in middle eastern politics, then I'm afraid that sounds sounds more like deliberate obtuseness than silliness.

The Iranian people have as has been pointed out here comprehensively messed around for decades. Speaking for myself, I've said plenty about theocratic dictatorships. Why would would "lefties" support governments who hang communists and trade unionists?

[cactusflower]

Good piece from Michael Totten here:

Commentary Blog Archive The Third Worldists Are Back

P.

The person quoted is Laura Secor, not Michael Totten. I read some of her material yesterday. It was light weight, anecdotal, and related only to her middleclass acquaintances.

I heard from even some Western expats who lived in Beirut that the demonstrators were mostly liberal and “bourgeois” Christians from the “Gucci” class.

Her expat friends were the source there too. Straw men here: no one has posted on the Lebanon in this thread.

[Kensington]

This is not going to be the end of the Mullahs at all. What may happen is that Kohmeni could be kicked out and replaced by Grand Ayatullah Husayn 'Ali Montazeri. He is a moderate and popular with the youth.

?????? ?? ????? Views from the Occident: Grand Ayatullah Montazeri Calls on 'Youth' to 'Claim their Rights' Peacefully & with 'Patience & Restraint'

There are more rumours that the army is meeting in private and considering their position. According to VOA, 16 or so Sepah (revolutionary Guard Officers) were arrested by the police. One of them told VOA that they were in contact with Russia for a military coup.

The other Conservative Candidate Rezai is apparently using his contacts with the revolutionary Guards to try and stop them attacking the protesters.

A recount would be a sham. If they didn't count the votes the first time, why should we expect them to count them this time? Mousavi is the President of Iran.

Iran Updates (VIDEO): Live-Blogging The Uprising

[oceanclub]

The person quoted is Laura Secor, not Michael Totten.

Er, no - it's Totten, who in turn quotes Secor, but I only quoted his words.

Straw men here: no one has posted on the Lebanon in this thread.

No straw-man; he points out that the same "protesters are just yuppies" argument was used by the anti-imperialist hard-left about Lebanon; it's just being rehashed about Iran by people who never been anywhere near the region, or refuse to acknowledge the videoed scenes of nurses and bin-men protesting.

P.

[Thac0man]

Like it or not, the plots actually exist. Maybe you're just not well informed enough. US support for Jundullah is a good example.

In my opinion, constant threats of war and invasion are counter productive. US/Israeli aggression... and it is real aggression, strengthens people like Ahmadinijad and provides him with the excuses he needs to oppress his own people.

Anyone who thinks that the US has anything other than greed in mind when it comes to its foreign policy is off their rocker.

For years the Yanks have been trying to destroy Iran and every step of the way their actions have actually had a negative impact on ordinary Iranian people.

I don't see many Iraqis surfing the net and going about the place in freedom, wearing what they like, do you? That kind of freedom is reserved for people who live in the Green Zone.

If you want positive change in Iran, trade with them, give Iranians visas, stop arming Israel, stop threatening to invade and occupy them.... let them loosen up a little.

Utter (utter) rubbish. You neglect to mention Irans sponsorship of Hezzbollah and indeed Hamas. Perhaps due to your weirdly Western perspective that there is no political divide between Shia and Sunni in the middle east and Iran is not a deft hand a manipulating that. Those groups are not alone in recieving sponsorship from Iran in the Middle East - so Irans "involvement" in funding dissident and terrorist groups beyond its borders far outweights any influance other nations (even combined) have within Iran.

The argument that Iran is somehow more democratis that its Arab neighbours (an arguement made often on P.ie) is now proven to be a falacy also.

You also cite US backing for Jundullah as fact, when all you have ever been able to cite is old evidance that is shakey at best and irrelivent to the current situaion in either Pakistan or Iran. As a matter a fact your evidance is flatly contradicted by the facts on the ground currently. Why would the US for instance want to destabilise a region that it relies on as its only land supply route into Afghanistan? Your evidence lies in the claims of Ahmedinjad, which have never been substanciated. Tortured suspects that confess to US involvement before being hanged hardly constitutes evidence does it?

You would accuse the US of encouraging the supressoing and killing of Muslims. Yet you yourself have proven more than willing to support just that.

If you are to take regimes claims at face value, then on balance Iran again comes out worse. Its alledged involvement in Iraq has cost American lives and the lives of thousands of Iraqis. There has been no recipricol action against Iran. There is also a question mark over its links to the Taliban now, that defunct regime now it seems proves useful to Irans counter productive foreign policy.

In short you have no good reason to believe the word of a regime that has proven itself to be false and misleading in both word and deed. The recent events in Iran prove that the Iranian regime in its current form does not even represent the people of Iran.

And while you are at it answer me this: You said in a previous post that "Islam is the only answer" in relation to Iran. Which strand of Islam? Shia or Sunni? Please don't provide me with the usual fudge that Muj used to serve up when confronted with the stark facts about the Middle East. It served only to prove his ignorance not only about politics but Islam itself.

[Kensington]

The police have arrested some Basiji (Ahmadinejad's thugs) who were shooting at protesters. The ordinary Police are have all apparently been unarmed. There is speculation that the Government does not trust them.

Doctors and Nurses are protesting in Tehran. They say that Hezbollah Arabs were beating and killing protesters.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyirzlCO-FA]YouTube - 16 JUNE 2009 - Doctors and nurses are protesting in a major hospital in Tehran - Iran[/ame]

A cleric from the city of Qom has said that the citie's clerics are behin Mousavi.

Bloody Day on Iran's Streets - WSJ.com

The US Government is working with twitter to ensure that the service, which is of great help to the Iranian protesters, does not go down.

Anderson Cooper 360: Blog Archive - State Department to Twitter: Keep Iranian tweets coming - Blogs from CNN.com

The BBC website has gone green in solidarity with the democracy protests in Iran. May just be a coincidence as it regularly changes colour, but you never know.

BBC - Homepage

Iran has banned foreign media from reporting anything from the country.]

Iran cancels foreign media accreditation | Reuters

Khamenyi appears to have backtracked in last few minutes. He now appears to be saying that the election was fine and that the protesters should accept it.

[cHeal]

The BBC website has gone green in solidarity with the democracy protests in Iran.

BBC - Homepage

OH FFS, this revolution is officially uncool now, and simultaneously the BBC loses all objectivity on the reporting of the event. Well done the beeb.

What the hell is with all these revolutions having colours? Does it mean its a revolution we should agree with? I'm actually starting to think the US had to have helped this on now. Oh well it could have been good...