Is this Mladic in 2008?

[nirvana]

@merle,
"so genetically serbs are evil ?"
Please don't put words of someone else into my mouth. Do the research, the guy is Serb and not Croat or Bosnian or whatever. With a claim about geneticaly "bad" people merle you are trying to appear smart but actually you are outright lair. First Serbian poet said that they have "a need to lie". Second I never said that Serbs or any other people are "geneticaly bad" as it is not truth. That is a horrible disgusting Nazi logic. Read again "Most famous Serbian poet once said - Laying is in Serbian genes, so just beware.". Nothing to do with me or genetically bad people. It is all in your mind. Or do you want to say that even Serbian poet lies - wow good one.

"Bosniak seperatists"
They are the people of Bosnia and they are separatists in their country according to you. But Serbs logically have a right to take Bosnian land. You are losing it.

"Along with the gypsies and jews"
This is heartbreaking. Bosnian Serbs are the only one against having a "Day of Remembering Genocide", that will be observed in whole EU. It is morbid to play with and use people who were exterminated even more than Bosnians, just to appear to have something in common. Sick. And you forgot about Cetnics (- Serbian Army) who were allies of Nazis, and helped ethnically decimate Jewish population (together with Ustasa). Remember Draza Mihajlovic, if not there is a club in Ravna Gora (Serbia). Use the keywords for search. I'm not talking about 50 years ago but today.

"war in which you guys joined the SS"
Who joined what ? Are you so paranoid to believe that I or anyone on this forum have anything to do with it ? I realy feel sorry for you 'cause you need help.

Why you started switching to the topic of WWII ? Like Serbs soon you'll start talking about Kosovo battles - 500 years ago ? That has nothing to do with the Mladic footage. It just looks like you are working hard to present a lame excuses for genocide.

I'm disappointed that you are not trying to discuss facts but personally offend.

[merle haggard]

@merle,
If the main concern of the kids killed by a "sniper" is killer's reward than you don't get it. Your concern for well being of Serbian govt is so touching. While it can be easy to develop an improved bounty scheme, it is not so trivial to understand their reasons (as to why). For example "Why didn't they try to avoid killing a lot of Bosnian Serbs during their non-selective bombing of the city (there are audio records of the com. officer issuing an order for mortar attacks while explicitly disregarding casualties of "their" people). Does it make sense to you ? Why all this bestiality and brutality had to be so gruesome, instead of just cold eliminations ? Maybe to ensure that other side would never want to live with you again or something else ?

About court orders, do some work by yourself it will give you better depth about this topic. For example try to find a name of that poet and read his stuff. Then maybe you'll have a better chance of understanding why the killers kept status quo situation in and around the city for 4 years, why they extensively used snipers, rockets launchers, why they targeted kids, why they have ready reasons for all their actions,........ He knows them extremely well and his explanations helped others understand them bit better. Please pay attention about his description of their almost pathological "need for lying". Since war ceased they've developed a technique of "swapping thesis" to perfection.

Can you use your common sense to explain genocide, rape, ethnic cleansing, killing of human beings, ... ? If not, how do you expect me to be able to explain it to you ? Even if I try, I may be biased, so it's better to find facts for yourself. That is why I give pointers and not an opinion.

If you have enough time and want to better comprehend Serbian doctrine, search for Dobrica Cosic, Seselj and Serbian SANU (they are creators/mentors of the idea of Greater Serbia), Kosovo battle, "chosen people", "alone against everyone" syndrome,...., with public documents on the net about it. Just be aware, it is a whole doctrine and not just few paragraphs you maybe hoped for .

I apologize for answering this off-topic question, but it could not be ignored.

you claimed in all seriousness there were court records which showed serbian snipers were given a $50 bounty for shooting a child which was under 2 years of age . Ive asked you to point us to them . Youve failed to do so , which doesnt surprise me in the slightest , and are now talking about some poet instead . Ive cast doubt on your claim , Im highly sceptical of it . I believe youve lied in this regard . Im not some anti muslim racist , far from it . Im someone whos sick to the back teeth about repeated lies demonising a particular ethnic group in the former yugoslavia to an extreme thats beyond ridiculous . Lies that are rarely if ever questioned . Im well aware of various chetnik/serb atrocties during that war and am appaled by them . But im not a fool and am sick of an Irish audience being taken for fools by numerous outlandish claims like this one .
So Im sorry , I dont believe for one second there wasny $50 bounty given to serb snipers for shooting children under 2 years of age . I believe that to be nohing more than a medieval style racist myth aimed at stirring up hatred against an ethnic group .

[nirvana]

@merle,
This is my last off-topic post due to respect of the original poster.
I didin't call you anti muslim racist, but I think that you have huuuge issues about that. Not my problem. I don't have time to dig for a link so can we regard my claim as "not substantiated" until I send you a link ? There is nothing malicious about it but forex keeps me too busy . I'm not paid to post here. It is not "demonizing a particular ethnic group" if I provide plenty of keywords so everyone can check it out. Draza Mihajlovic is idol to most of them, and people of Ravna Gora celebrate him even today. A lot of officers of VRS are called Vojvoda - Cetnics titles of commanders from WWII. Slang for VRS used by their members is Cetnics. The longer beards are kept like in WWII. A lot of them had kokarda on their hats. Don't trust me, please check. No demonising - that is what happened and if you check youtube they are proud of it. Nothing for me to say really.
Also you have impressive number of posts but uncalled personal attacks seems to be your favourite style. How you got the conclusion
"Did the SS perhpas tell you that in WW2 . You know the war in which you guys joined the SS en masse"
How do you know that I was even born before WWII ? What guys joined SS ? Who said it was "en masse" - do you have a source ? Also my post 21.
BTW your pictures of Nazis are Croats and not Bosnians. Others are German Army (muslims) and none of them got anything with the philosophy of Bosnians killed during genocide. Most of them were not alive in 1940. Nazis devastated population of Bosnia during WWII as well as Serbs and Macedonians and Montenegrians. Why do you think that people would support them - ever ? So your pictures are way more misleading and are a clear fabrication comparing with my lack of time to find a link (that you called a lie).

Please don't protect Irish people, as at least they can (same as Scots in my belief) protect themselves really well and can't be fooled. I got huge respect for both of them. You know the line "There are two kinds of people". BTW Bono has dual citizenship - Bosnian as well and is an honorary citizen of Sarajevo. The guy is treated as God in Bosnia and he would not support Nazis and have their passport.

Your text of Srebrenica is a joke, but keep going. You didn't comment from my post 14:
"Only facts and logic. Do you know what logistics is necessary to eliminate 8000+ people, dig graves, transport people and finish it all in 7 days ? Srebrenica is not an accident but well planned scenario. Petrol was even supplied from Serbia. Why some bodies have been transported to Belgrade and later returned ? Have you watched Scorpions in Srebrenica. It's on youtube. Watch and make an opinion by yourself."

And it is not "some poet" but a guy who gave a great explanation of their nature, and he loves them and is one of them. That is what they stand for, without one single "false claim" by an outsider. No need to comment, just think. You don't understand them much but you are quite ready to elaborate about events around Srebrenica and in Balkans in general. Interesting, hopefully you are well paid to spend so much time.

Again why do you work so hard to change topic from video of Mladic ?
Next post only about video.

[IvoShandor]

why this dishonesty ? It was not people ie civilians who fled .An army regiment attempted a diastrous retreat on foot through enemy held territory in the middle of a bloody war and unsurprisingly got torn to pieces for attempting a completely ridiculous military manouvre . In your warped view a serbian soldier who shoots a bosnian soldier in the midlle of a war is committing an act of murder . Thats absolutely bloody ridiculous .

So why, if these men were killed in battle,go to the trouble of secretly burying the bodies not once but, in some cases, twice? No reason to do that unless there was something to hide....

"Which made a bloody civil war inevitable as opposed to an even half peaceful settlement"

What settlement was that? The settlement where they lived in Milosovich's "greater Serbia", knowing their place, like the people of Kosovo. I doubt that would have appealed to them.

"Dont forget either the thousands of Bosnian muslims who stood and fought alongside their serbian neighbours...."

Yes, I do. The Serbs who fought alongside their Bosnian neighbours in Sarajevo against Mladics genocidal thugs..all honour to them. If the Bosnians "wanted to eradicate them from the bosnian landscape", then these men seemed not to have noticed, oddly enough.

[Partizan]

So why, if these men were killed in battle,go to the trouble of secretly burying the bodies not once but, in some cases, twice? No reason to do that unless there was something to hide....

"Which made a bloody civil war inevitable as opposed to an even half peaceful settlement"

What settlement was that? The settlement where they lived in Milosovich's "greater Serbia", knowing their place, like the people of Kosovo. I doubt that would have appealed to them.

"Dont forget either the thousands of Bosnian muslims who stood and fought alongside their serbian neighbours...."

Yes, I do. The Serbs who fought alongside their Bosnian neighbours in Sarajevo against Mladics genocidal thugs..all honour to them. If the Bosnians "wanted to eradicate them from the bosnian landscape", then these men seemed not to have noticed, oddly enough.

Did you eat CNN Oatmeal for breakfast this morning? More crap from a Green neo-liberal pinko.

[Partizan]

@Partizan,
I never heard of Serbs eating babies but there are court judgments as a proof that every Serb sniper in Sarajevo got 50$ as a bonus for killing under 2 years old kids. People here can read you eeeasy.

Only facts and logic. Do you know what logistics is necessary to eliminate 8000+ people, dig graves, transport people and finish it all in 7 days ? Srebrenica is not an accident but well planned scenario. Petrol was even supplied from Serbia. Why some bodies have been transported to Belgrade and later returned ? Have you watched Scorpions in Srebrenica. It's on youtube. Watch and make an opinion by yourself.

Even a newsreporter liquidated by Serbs in UK was not funny, as she was just reporting - doing her job. But that was enough for Serbs to execute her as a revenge. No wolfs or nonsense, just facts - easy to check.

Do you have any proof to back up those fantastic claims. Which court judgments? Show us the proof. if you are referring to the ICC in the Hague......I rest my case your honour.

[nirvana]

[COLOR="Red"]Mass graves[/COLOR]
Finding the bodies to fill the Bosnia graves - Scotsman.com News
Advocacy Project Blogs - The downward spiral begins

I was able to visit the International Commission for Missing Persons (ICMP) last week and learnt a great deal about the process of the identification of people who were buried in mass graves. There are three types of mass graves – primary, secondary and tertiary – which refer to the systematic reinterment (or re-burial) of bodies by Bosnian Serb troops in other mass graves so that these bodies could not be found. With the movement of bodies from primary to secondary and tertiary graves, the bodies are sometimes more difficult to identify due to incomplete remains. Currently, 100 mass graves have been excavated in Bosnia (BiH), and there are still 15 mass graves known of in the area, but have not yet been exhumed. These are mostly a result of the massacres in both Srebrenica in 1995 and Zvornik in 1992.

Law Student Gets Firsthand Look at Human Rights Justice
“Through his work and the work of the investigators at the ICTY, they were able to provide evidence of date and cause of death, identity of victims, evidence obtained that linked execution sites to mass graves, as well as evidence linking various mass graves to one another,” Abboud said.

“For example,” Abboud said, “through DNA testing and a collaboration between the ICTY and the ICMP [International Commission on Missing Persons], investigators were able to link primary and secondary graves together. In other words, when the Serbian army suspected that they were discovered digging and burying in mass graves known as ‘primary graves,’ they dug up graves already finished, then separated the bodies and dug new mass graves called ‘secondary graves.’”

The ICTY was able to discover this, she explained, because DNA from individual victims was found in two or three different graves. This gruesome and painstaking work involved matching DNA from body parts scattered in various graves to a single individual.

Read more: Law Student Gets Firsthand Look at Human Rights Justice

[COLOR="Blue"]New mass grave finds in Serbia[/COLOR]
BBC News | EUROPE | New mass grave finds in Serbia

[nirvana]

[COLOR="Red"]Radislav Krstic[/COLOR]
Correspondents Report - The Hague's genocide conviction
Krstic - Judgement

The trial of Krstic over the mass executions and forced deportations of Srebrenica was exhaustive, 126 witnesses and over 1000 exhibits. The judgement itself is fascinating reading and gives detailed accounts of the atrocities committed by the Drina Corps, the unit commanded by Krstic.

The judge told the court how Krstic agreed to oversee the mass executions that began on July 13th. By the 19th, somewhere between 7 or 8000 Muslim men and boys were dead. The men of fighting age were separated from the rest and crammed into warehouses and halls. At first, they were beaten, then a decision was taken to kill them all. What was ethnic cleansing, the judge said, then became genocide.

The court heard how 1000 men in a gymnasium were taken to a field in trucks. They were unloaded and executed. Earth movers were already digging up the ground to shovel them in. Others were taken to a cultural centre. Their hands were tied, they were wearing blindfolds and all but one were dressed in civilian clothes.

A former soldier testified that he and his colleagues fired on them until their trigger fingers hurt. The next day they went back and called out to any survivors. There were a few and they were forced to stand up and sing Serb war songs, then they too were killed.

A memorial to Serb heroes of the war now stand outside that cultural centre. A few months later there was a concerted effort to cover up the crime. Bodies were exhumed and reburied elsewhere.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tribunal: ICTY. Accused: [COLOR="Red"]BLAGOJEVIC, Vidoje[/COLOR]
ICTY/ BLAGOJEVIC, Vidoje/ Judgement, ICTY/ JOKIC, Dragan/ Judgement

Vidoje Blagojevi? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[nirvana]

[COLOR="Red"]Mark Harmon's most dreadful experience[/COLOR]
Dani, Most Massive Of All Mass Graves, by Hasan HADZIC, August 15, 2003
Perfect Monsters
The suburb of Pilica and its Culture Center, where in 1992 the inhabitants of Djulici, Klisa and Setici were tortured and killed, was mentioned by Mark Harmon the prosecutor of The Hague war crimes tribunal, in an interview he gave to Dani last year. He mentioned them in the context of the Srebrenica massacre that happened three years later. The similarities between these two great criminal operations prove that the Belgrade-Pale project of eradicating the Bosniak population of the Drina valley was carefully planned: torture chambers, execution methods, killing fields and locations for mass graves, the impeccable readiness of the Serb population for the crimes carried out in its name - all was prepared with monstrous precision.

[nirvana]

[COLOR="Red"]AN AMAZING ARTICLE [/COLOR]
One for Partizan, merle, BritishPetroleum
SREBRENICA AND SERBIA some thoughts on moral monsters, bystanders and civic minded people. CAFÉ TURCO

I have given up on counting the number of people in Serbia that tried to manipulate me into relativising the seriousness of crimes committed during the wars. I guess I look dumb, and I do play dumb because I think it is very important for my work to listen to such arguments on first hand. It makes me sick, tough, to listen to some people that have everything to be qualified as decent honest citizens trying to pedagogically convince me about what “really” happened, and then doing their best to show me that the serbs are really nice people, excellent hosts and that I have the wrong impression because I was naive and thus manipulated to believe in anti-serbian traitors ( as if I needed to be rescued from those self hating serbs).

I have been studying about the rethoric of victimization in Serbia, and i also am aware that the reversal of reality is one of the most clear signs of a totalitarian mind-set. But at the same time, I often have the feeling that the strategy of denial, oblivion or relativisation used by normal serbian citizens whom I met in the last 2 and half years is in fact hiding a sense of shame that is sublimated as victimization and scapegoating of others. They need to denie or relativise so that they keep intact their self image of decent persons.

I am in Belgrade now, and today I listened to some young people who were teenagers in 1995. They remember, they know and they refuse denial. They face the hostility of the bystanders and relativisers, something that sometimes has deep implications to their lives, as those bystanders are often their parents, family and friends.

Unlike those other people, they are willing to go against the tendency to denial and oblivion. From their mouths I know that I will have to listen to lectures about the demographic strategy of the albanians, or about how the roma who refuse to integrate themselves in the serbian society all carry muslim names, and similar racist statements that I have heard too often. They are a source of hope, and the fact that they were able to organize and engage in common actions with people like the mothers of Srebrenica is a source of hope for Serbia too.