Irish 'involved' in Bolivia 'assassination attempt'

[imoretti]

Interesting, looks like they have no Patriot Act in Bolivia. I wonder how the civicos in the media luna think that police special forces act in the "western civilized work". I recall vividly the presence of a prosecutor in the London tube when a plaincloth policeman emptied a gun on the head of a brazilian suspected to be on his way to blow out half of Britain.

Care to comment?

That was terrible. My recollection is that the police made a lethal miscalculation, no doubt influenced by the London bombings in which 50 people died just weeks earlier and a subsequent change in the department's shoot to kill policy.

[imoretti]

1. I don't think there is any evidence that the group was "under constant surveillance by an elite tactical intelligence police group". UTARC and the Delta group were specifically brought down from La Paz because there was no local capability to deal with an experienced armed terror gang.

My impression was that the UTARC people were brought to deal with them because they were running the case. There are police here in Santa Cruz quite capable of dealing with experienced armed terror gangs: local FELCN, anti-narcotics police, for example.

2. I don't see any reason to be surprised that they were able to drive for a few minutes, set off a bomb outside the Cardinals house and return. They obviously were "detected" one way or another. One of the survivors gave evidence that the bomb was planted by ERF and Dwyer and that Dwyer was high with excitement when he got back. From the state of Dwyer in some of the photographs, the unwary attitudes were perhaps affected by the old marching powder. It was very hot and the norm for people to sleep naked or in shorts.

The day of the Cardinal's bombing, the government and MAS were quick to blame opposition separatists. The opposition, meanwhile, were mum that day. I don't believe there was any evidence that ERF was involved, certainly not prior to the shootings 28 hours later. Again, I don't see any valid reason not to believe the group was under 24-hour surveillance by UTARC and/or local law enforcement. Evo, himself, announced on the day of the shootings that they had perished in an operation that he had ordered because the terrorists were about to assassinate him.

Evo announced yesterday a new reason that the operation was undertaken: ERF and crew were about to escape. If they weren't under close surveillance, how would anyone know?

No one has ever been formally charged in the Cardinal bombing.

Mataron a Rózsa porque temían que huya, dice Evo

3. Moving hotels would have drawn attention to themselves. What evidence do you have that they were unarmed ?

I haven't seen any evidence that they were. The second video suggests that at least one weapon was planted. I'm not entirely convinced only on the basis of just the video, but I do consider it plausible.

5. From their demeanour and history, one can only assume that they were arrogant and racist and that they looked on the Bolivian government and police as fools.

Perhaps, but not a reason to kill them. There are plenty of people walking this planet just like them. As they say, you can't love 'em, and you can't kill 'em.

As a reminder, I am in no way exonerating ERF and his friends. It does seem to me that whatever their plans and motivations were, they were way wrong. My particular interest in this case is how the judicial process is being carried out. What this country needs, as I've noted previously, is a functioning system of law and order. Unfortunately, there are a number of holes in the government's handling of the matter which are going to come back to haunt them. Chalk it up to an inexperienced administration, at the very least, perhaps. It stains whatever good things they have, and could, accomplish here.

[cactusflower]

[quote]

My impression was that the UTARC people were brought to deal with them because they were running the case. There are police here in Santa Cruz quite capable of dealing with experienced armed terror gangs: local FELCN, anti-narcotics police, for example.

The Delta group, whoever they are, were also said to have been involved. I haven't read any reports expressing surprise at UTARC - Delta's involvement. Its easy to see why the state forces would have gone full throttle in relation to ERF with his reputation as a hardened and heavily armed mercenary.

The day of the Cardinal's bombing, the government and MAS were quick to blame opposition separatists. The opposition, meanwhile, were mum that day.

Yes, indeed. It was a false flag operation, for once caught from the outset. Apart from "guilty" what could they say? They knew they were rumbled, but didn't know exactly what information the state had.

I don't believe there was any evidence that ERF was involved, certainly not prior to the shootings 28 hours later.

How come ? If he did it, there was evidence. After the arrests there was evidence given by at least one of his "colleagues" that he carried out the bombings. Plus there is his disgusting history in false flag killings etc. documented by the UN.

Again, I don't see any valid reason not to believe the group was under 24-hour surveillance by UTARC and/or local law enforcement. Evo, himself, announced on the day of the shootings that they had perished in an operation that he had ordered because the terrorists were about to assassinate him.

There are many possibilities - the group was heavily infiltrated and it presumably known that the Cardinals house was not occupied and that the bomb was a small false flag job more aimed at the headlines than anything else. Or else ERF may have been watched, successfully or unsuccessfully, or not watched. It doesn't seem to me to be anything more than a footnote, either way. Logic would suggest that the bombing brought an end to the watching and led to UTARC /Delta being called down from La Paz.

Evo announced yesterday a new reason that the operation was undertaken: ERF and crew were about to escape. If they weren't under close surveillance, how would anyone know?

No one is saying their movements weren't watched to a greater or lesser extent. I would assume that the bombing would have led to immediate scaling up of the operation. However your suggestion that this means they couldn't have carried out the bombing just doesn't wash.

No one has ever been formally charged in the Cardinal bombing.

It is highly probable that the two persons involved are dead.

Mataron a Rózsa porque temían que huya, dice Evo

I haven't seen any evidence that they were. The second video suggests that at least one weapon was planted. I'm not entirely convinced only on the basis of just the video, but I do consider it plausible.

Having seen the amount of weaponry with which ERF and Co surrounded themselves, the idea that a weapon might have been planted seems superfluous.

Perhaps, but not a reason to kill them. There are plenty of people walking this planet just like them. As they say, you can't love 'em, and you can't kill 'em.

ERF was a murderous war starting scum bag. He had no problem killing people and intended killing more. If he had suceeded in starting a war, there would have been many, many dead. Who says you can't kill people like that ? Are you a pacifist ?

As a reminder, I am in no way exonerating ERF and his friends. It does seem to me that whatever their plans and motivations were, they were way wrong. My particular interest in this case is how the judicial process is being carried out. What this country needs, as I've noted previously, is a functioning system of law and order. Unfortunately, there are a number of holes in the government's handling of the matter which are going to come back to haunt them. Chalk it up to an inexperienced administration, at the very least, perhaps. It stains whatever good things they have, and could, accomplish here.

The people who are stained in this are the US State Department, HRF, and the Santa Cruz right wing. They have been exposed for their involvement in a deeply embarrassing debacle.

[Cathar]

The day of the Cardinal's bombing, the government and MAS were quick to blame opposition separatists. The opposition, meanwhile, were mum that day. I don't believe there was any evidence that ERF was involved, certainly not prior to the shootings 28 hours later. Again, I don't see any valid reason not to believe the group was under 24-hour surveillance by UTARC and/or local law enforcement. Evo, himself, announced on the day of the shootings that they had perished in an operation that he had ordered because the terrorists were about to assassinate him.
.

Quite the contrary was the case with all the local papers,in the day after, condemning Evo and his supporters for the the attack on the Cardinal's residence. Check your sources more carefully.

[estouxim]

[quote=cactusflower;2243669]

The reports said that the Delta group were also involved at the Hotel. Would they be army ?

According to what seems to be the oficial Bolivian police web site they are police.

I came to this forum a couple of weeks ago, following a link from a brasilian blog that is disseminating HRF views on the Honduran crisis, namely that Zelaya was going to perpetuate himself in power, that Chávez was going to turn Honduras into a new Cuba, How Micheletti is a true patriot, etc.
I followed the Bolivian situation quite intensively during the autonomy referendum, up to the Pando massacre and it's aftermath. Having moved to one of those rare places were internet is only available by dial up my time online was reduced to an ocasional email checking untill a couple of months ago when adsl became available, and Honduras was the new battleground of the south american oligarchies.
Therefore it was only very recently that I found out about Rózsa and the present state of affairs in Bolivia.
And what surprises me is that when now the secessionist effort has been practically deflated, when the divide in the oposition is following the same path as in Venezuela, they, and the media they control, seem to have no other strategy then to blame their own actions on the government. According to them, it was the government that perpetrated the Pando massacre, it was the government that hired Rózsa. Those without memory, those ignorant on recent history might buy that, seeing how our "free and independent" press echoes and amplifies it.

So, I decided to clarify the matter. Dis you think these where UJC members parading in Santa Cruz?



Wrong, as the picture bellow clearly shows, it was the MAS in their first efforts to discredit the hard working cambas!

[cactusflower]

[quote=estouxim;2246597]

According to what seems to be the oficial Bolivian police web site they are police.

I came to this forum a couple of weeks ago, following a link from a brasilian blog that is disseminating HRF views on the Honduran crisis, namely that Zelaya was going to perpetuate himself in power, that Chávez was going to turn Honduras into a new Cuba, How Micheletti is a true patriot, etc.
I followed the Bolivian situation quite intensively during the autonomy referendum, up to the Pando massacre and it's aftermath. Having moved to one of those rare places were internet is only available by dial up my time online was reduced to an ocasional email checking untill a couple of months ago when adsl became available, and Honduras was the new battleground of the south american oligarchies.
Therefore it was only very recently that I found out about Rózsa and the present state of affairs in Bolivia.
And what surprises me is that when now the secessionist effort has been practically deflated, when the divide in the oposition is following the same path as in Venezuela, they, and the media they control, seem to have no other strategy then to blame their own actions on the government. According to them, it was the government that perpetrated the Pando massacre, it was the government that hired Rózsa. Those without memory, those ignorant on recent history might buy that, seeing how our "free and independent" press echoes and amplifies it.

So, I decided to clarify the matter. Dis you think these where UJC members parading in Santa Cruz?



Wrong, as the picture bellow clearly shows, it was the MAS in their first efforts to discredit the hard working cambas!

Well spotted. And do you have the photos of Zelaya kidnapping himself and the Honduran demonstrators wantonly shooting themselves in the heads to discredit Micheletti ?

[cactusflower]

The Irish end of this wants looking at too. We have former Irish Army Rangers, running IRMS, a private security agency, who had staff who were assembling mercenary groups to carry out a mission to destabilise the Bolivian state. Is there any sign of Tibor Revesz's role being investigated ? And IRMS ? Paul O'Brien's recent article in the Irish Times described the mission as defensive, repeating a phrase of E Rosza Flores. Are we going to see a quiet white wash ?

Imo the Bolivian Government should be asking the Irish Government for an investigation, as well as taking part in whatever investigation is wanted about the shootings of the three men.

[Cathar]

The Irish end of this wants looking at too. We have former Irish Army Rangers, running IRMS, a private security agency, who had staff who were assembling mercenary groups to carry out a mission to destabilise the Bolivian state. Is there any sign of Tibor Revesz's role being investigated ? And IRMS ? Paul O'Brien's recent article in the Irish Times described the mission as defensive, repeating a phrase of E Rosza Flores. Are we going to see a quiet white wash ?

Imo the Bolivian Government should be asking the Irish Government for an investigation, as well as taking part in whatever investigation is wanted about the shootings of the three men.

The whitewash of the IRMS connection and Michael Dwyer started from immediately after the killing. The incident was a major embarassment to the firm and the PSA pointing out the weaknesses in both their checking processes.
IRMS are effectively being used as an outsourced police force for roles formerly conducted by the Gardai. So none of the institutions of state had any appetite to investigate.
The story of the Bodyguard course was just another smokescreen, Certainly Pistovak or Revesz were under no illusion. This is proven from emails released and in the public domain.It is inconceivable they didn't discuss it among themselves. Rosza's defense story is another smokescreen, C4 is not used defensively.
The big question remains why did 5 (or up to 7) former IRMS employees sign up to Rosza's ten man team of mercenaries. Is it IRMS or the calibre of people it employs? Their conduct in the assault on Willie Corduff which was led by Jim Farrell shows them as professional thugs. The future of a country where a private Army can act with impunity is bleak.

[Frankie Lee]

The Irish end of this wants looking at too. We have former Irish Army Rangers, running IRMS, a private security agency, who had staff who were assembling mercenary groups to carry out a mission to destabilise the Bolivian state. Is there any sign of Tibor Revesz's role being investigated ? And IRMS ? Paul O'Brien's recent article in the Irish Times described the mission as defensive, repeating a phrase of E Rosza Flores. Are we going to see a quiet white wash ?

Imo the Bolivian Government should be asking the Irish Government for an investigation, as well as taking part in whatever investigation is wanted about the shootings of the three men.

Did Michael D Higgins ever get a response to his Dail question?

[imoretti]

Quite the contrary was the case with all the local papers,in the day after, condemning Evo and his supporters for the the attack on the Cardinal's residence. Check your sources more carefully.

My sources are just what I saw and didn't see firsthand on the news stations here that day. I didn't read the local papers that day, like you did. Sorry I can't be more helpful than that.