Irish 'involved' in Bolivia 'assassination attempt'

[cactusflower]

Let me be quite clear - unlike you, I have no conspiracies to peddle.
I have travelled extensively and am aware of the predeliction of corrupt tin-pot governments the world over for shooting people as they wish and covering it up.
And there are long-standing and legitimate concerns over the rule of law and judicial procedures in countries like Bolivia.
An Irishman was shot dead, not arrested, but murdered. This was done by Bolivian security forces.
Rather than buy into ever more preposterous theories that seek to link everything from Rossport and Shell to the CIA into this case, I am simply raising the points that there has not been a satisfactory investigation and likely will not be, since those responsible for this execution are also responsible for investigating it, and since the Bolivian President has come out with a series of bizarre and unsubstantiated statements which indicate that his state have pre-established conclusions to where they want any investigation to go.
I'm happy to leave you in your tragic little world of conspiracies. They won't keep me awake at night.
But I will leave you with the question you refused to answer: why do you not hold the Bolivian authorities to the same standards as the American authorities?

Really. Would you care to substantiate that ?

Do you support the actions of the Nacion Gamba, UJC, and Comite por Santa Cruz in carrying out massacres of Indians, beatings of Indians and violent secessionist insurrection against the democratic government of the country. These are the forces that Dwyer was working with.

No one here "seeks to link" Rossport to this - Michael Dwyer and Tibor Revesz provided the link by working together in Rossport and travelling together to Bolivia. You have decided in advance, on the basis of your travels and worldy wisdom, that the Bolivian government is incapable of an investigation. You run away from the idea of CIA involvement. There is ample evidence of US interference in Bolivian politics, that you choose not to address.

A satisfactory investigation will be one which tells the whole story of what they were doing and of who instigated, paid for and supported the activities of this criminal armed gang, as well as the details of how some of them were killed and others arrested.

[JCSkinner]

And such an investigation cannot credibly be performed by the Bolivian authorities who are culpable in the matter and who have issued frankly prejudicial statements prior to the investigation taking place.

[merle haggard]

What is my agenda, tell me? Because I don't have one.
An unarmed Irishman is shot dead by security forces. They don't kill people by accident, and he wasn't in a public place, like a crowd, where it could happen unintentionally.
He was deliberately killed. They meant to kill him. Now, you can call that murder, execution, assassination, homicide, or whatever you like.
The only question is whether they can justify doing so or not. I've no doubt they're working hard on a story to do just that. But the issue stands as to why he was shot and not arrested.

i think he was shot because he wasnt on the ground with his hands in the air when challenged unlike those who werent shot . That and the fact he wasa member of a fascist mercenary unit that were considered armed and dangerous . And were . That pretty much will get you shot .

[JCSkinner]

i think he was shot because he wasnt on the ground with his hands in the air when challenged unlike those who werent shot . That and the fact he wasa member of a fascist mercenary unit that were considered armed and dangerous . And were . That pretty much will get you shot .

Let's assume that's what did happen, Merle. That's an assassination, not due process of law.
He ought to have been arrested. And certainly, the same body that killed him in cold blood cannot be entrusted to investigate the event.
In any case, I remain to be convinced that Dwyer WAS a 'member of a fascist mercenary unit'. And there is no evidence that he was either armed or dangerous. In fact, I'd suggest he was neither.

[merle haggard]

And such an investigation cannot credibly be performed by the Bolivian authorities who are culpable in the matter and who have issued frankly prejudicial statements prior to the investigation taking place.

according to you the Bolivian authorities cannot carry out an investigation into why their forces shot dead 3 members of a mercenary group in Bolivia , because it was their forces who did it . And because the Bolivian governemnt have claimed these mercenaries were mercenaries engaged in a series of explosions and assassination plots ?

JC thats absolutely ridiculous . Your holding yourself up to ridicule here . I can see you putting yourself on a hook that you wont be able to get off on this one and implore you to think again .

What do you mean they are culpable in the matter ? The fact it happpened in Bolivia ? Who else is going to make the arrests except the Bolivian security forces ?

According to this logic no country can investigate why its forces shot dead foreign terrorists/mercenaries if that country claims their security forces have foiled a terrorist/mercenary plot . Thats an absolutely ridiculous claim to make.

[jcdf]

Of course in all this the Bolivians are only hurting themselves. Who now is going to go to Bolivia on holiday? A country where police shoot foreigners because they suspect them of being terrorists. I know I would not go there on holiday.

[merle haggard]

[quote=JCSkinner;1616517]

Let's assume that's what did happen, Merle. That's an assassination, not due process of law.

is it feck . Had they walked up behind him on the street and shot him dead without challenging him to surrender that would have been an assassination . These people were confronted and challenged . He did not assume the surrender position , those who surrendered did and werent shot . If you dont you get plugged . That may seem harsh but when you are engaged in that type of activity those are the rules .

He ought to have been arrested.

if he wanted to be arrested then the place to be is flat on the ground with your hands on your head

And certainly, the same body that killed him in cold blood cannot be entrusted to investigate the event.

yes they can , police forces all over the world carry out their own investigations when they apprehend terrorists . Nobody else does it for them . You arent even pointing to a precedent simply because there isnt one .

In any case, I remain to be convinced that Dwyer WAS a 'member of a fascist mercenary unit'

the evidence is conclusive . I fear youve adopted a mindset on this issue and therefore simply refuse to look at it

. And there is no evidence that he was either armed or dangerous. In fact, I'd suggest he was neither.

apart from him openly posing with illegal guns in the company of a fascist mercenary unit who were heavily armed . The company hed been exclsuively keeping the entire time he was on his expensively funded soujourn in Bolivia .
youve provided nothing to back up your assertion he was neither when theres a wealth of evidence pointing to how heavily armed this group were , what their intentions were, what their motivation was , what their links were . And absolutely no alternative explanation as to who was financing their trip and why . Which was as heavily financed as they were armed.

[JCSkinner]

They're culpable because they did the shooting, Merle. I'd have thought that was self-evident.
You say they shot a mercenary group. So do the Bolivians. But they can't prove they were a mercenary group and so far have not done so.
Bolivia is no paragon of nations to be trusted to investigate the actions of its securocrats. You may wish to examine what organisations like Transparency International or Amnesty have to say about the place.
I return again to the example of Andrew Hanlon. An Irishman shot dead abroad by foreign cops, and his family weren't happy at all. DFA got involved and had 100% co-operation from the Yanks. They held a series of investigations. In the end they exonerated the cop, though he ended up going down for kiddie abuse anyway.
But while the Hanlons remain unhappy, I think it's fair to say that pretty much everyone else is satisfied by the investigations that proceeded in full openness and in front of Irish consular attendees.
If similar circumstances applied here, that would be great. If I could be confident that Bolivian authorities could be trusted to pursue that sort of investigation and be that open with the Irish authorities, then I would not be concerned if it concluded that Dwyer was a mercenary who was legitimately killed by Bolivian police.
However, that's not the case. Bolivia is a tinpot corrupt country, currently riven by a paranoid far-left leader who wields tight control of the military and police, facing internal dissent which he hopes to crush.
The Irish authorities have already flagged their concerns in public about the co-operation they are receiving from the Bolivians - both in the diplospeak of public statements and in much stronger terms behind closed doors.
Furthermore, the statements by Morales seek to link Dwyer, and by extension Ireland, into a conspiracy (which may or may not exist) to overthrow him, or to create a secessionist state. Clearly these are not objective people to conduct this investigation.
That's why an internationally led investigation is required.
It's not me has a closed mind on this case. I'm keen to establish why an Irishman was shot dead by cops in South America is all. It seems to me that people like yourself are tremendously keen to prejudge the case, possibly due to a sense of fellow-travelling with Morales. I suggest you find better world leaders to travel alongside politically.

[Sam Lord]

The value of this thread has been in the investigative work done by posters in trying to get to the bottom of the plot. They have been two steps ahead of the media all the way. I would like to see the thread focus on that and not get cluttered up with argument. There are those who will always believe that Dwyer wa in Bolivia on holidays and that the Bolivian security services killed him for fun. These people will not be convinced otherwise, no matter what evidence emerges. In my opinion they should be ignored.

[Frankie Lee]

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