South Africa- End of the One Party State?

[stringjack]

Hold yer horses. You said that if the white rulers had allowed black voters to participate, then parties based on policy rather than colour would have developed.

The key word being "developed" which suggests that the process would take time. In fact, the suggestion is that the longer populations are forced to define their political aspirations in terms of racial solidarity in the face of a racist regime, the longer such structures will persist after the end of that regime. ANC one-party dominance is a consequence of apartheid.

[JCSkinner]

Never said it wasn't. I did say it wasn't ideal in the interests of democracy, and I did take issue with the lad who said that parties based on policy would follow from liberation. Well, they haven't.

[rockofcashel]

Never said it wasn't. I did say it wasn't ideal in the interests of democracy, and I did take issue with the lad who said that parties based on policy would follow from liberation. Well, they haven't.

i never said parties based on policy would follow from liberation JC, rather I stressed that parties based on race (which is overwhelmingly the case currently in SA), are a result of policies based on the exclusion of race. Had the white minority shared power a long way back with the native black population of SA, then policy based parties may have emerged, rather than the monolith that is now the ANC (not that I have a particular difficulty with the ANC ruling SA).

We are still talking about an emerging democracy here by the way (though the white apologists will say SA was demcratic for decades, the same as NI was). Maybe in time, policy will become the cleavage on which SA politics will divide, rather than race/.

[JCSkinner]

Still playing counterhistory, eh? Well, have fun.
Here's what you originally said, as you seem to be shifting your position: As for fearing the dominance of one party rule, if the white rulers had allowed black voters to participate in the democratic control of South Africa, integrating them into parties based on policy rather than colour, then the situation might have been different.

That pretty much says to me that the result of liberation would be parties based on policy rather than colour. Over a decade on, what we have seen instead is the copperfastening of ANC government, and the lessening of choice to SA voters with, inter alia, the merger of the NP and the ANC.

[rockofcashel]

Still playing counterhistory, eh? Well, have fun.
Here's what you originally said, as you seem to be shifting your position: As for fearing the dominance of one party rule, if the white rulers had allowed black voters to participate in the democratic control of South Africa, integrating them into parties based on policy rather than colour, then the situation might have been different.

That pretty much says to me that the result of liberation would be parties based on policy rather than colour. Over a decade on, what we have seen instead is the copperfastening of ANC government, and the lessening of choice to SA voters with, inter alia, the merger of the NP and the ANC.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, nor engage in counterhistory JC. I have a great affinity with SA in fact, and would love to see it grow into a thriving successful democracy.

However, giving the recent political history of SA, its unsurprising that it is currently in the position it is in. But we are only ten years in so maybe we should give it a chance. remember, in the 26 counties, we are only shaking off the political cleavages created by the civil war, and that was 80 years ago.

I think the real test of democracy in SA, will come when the next Presidential elections come up, and will Mbeki step aside allowing a seamless take over by the next President

[JCSkinner]

I agree with you that the presidency will be a big test. I also think that the ANC should not be immune from criticism from those who supported their quest for liberation, and ought to be held accountable both for the successes of their rule since liberation and their failures.
The failure of the ANC to split into its various components to permit voter choice is a major impediment to functioning democracy in my opinion. The current 'broad church' model of rule permits Government to function autocratically and in the interest of members rather than be answerable to the people.

[stringjack]

That pretty much says to me that the result of liberation would be parties based on policy rather than colour. Over a decade on...

I thought it said that if there had never been racist political structures in South Africa in the first place, there wouldn't be parties based on race now (which I think is a reasonable claim). Also, you seem to think ten years or so is a long time in these circumstances; I'm not sure I would agree.

The failure of the ANC to split into its various components to permit voter choice is a major impediment to functioning democracy in my opinion. The current 'broad church' model of rule permits Government to function autocratically and in the interest of members rather than be answerable to the people.

True - consider the case of Japan by way of comparison.

[JCSkinner]

Ten years is enough to note changes, and as I say, we haven't seen them and South African people have a right to be frustrated with the ANC, and the ANC ought to be open to such criticism after ten years, which for many people still struggling below the poverty line without jobs in shanty towns, is a long time.
Japan is a good comparison, as is Mexico, or indeed FF Ireland for a long time.

[chiffon rouge]

If the people of South Africa continue to choose the ANC in democratic elections (giving them 1.3 million more votes than at the last local elections) then who are we to tell them they shouldn't. That smacks of imperialism to me.