The Beginning of The End for Free Speech?

[Trampas]

Geert could do a whole lot more for his country by working to ensure the buy-in of those 1 million (and the next generation) to the liberal democratic process than peddling the cheap populist politics that is his current brand.

THose people haven't come to Europe to "buy in" to anything, least of all the "liberal democratic process". As for what Wilders is "peddling", we will see just how populist it is during his trial, but "cheap" it isn't given the fact that Wilders needs a 24 hour armed guard and is unable to sleep in his own bed.

[XRoot]

THose people haven't come to Europe to "buy in" to anything, least of all the "liberal democratic process". As for what Wilders is "peddling", we will see just how populist it is during his trial, but "cheap" it isn't given the fact that Wilders needs a 24 hour armed guard and is unable to sleep in his own bed.

I'm not denying the serious problem of radical Islam. Not by any means.

But Geert really is not making it any easier to tackle that problem by painting all Muslims as violent Islamists.

By the way, which Muslims are you referring to when you say 'those people'?

[Trampas]

I'm not denying the serious problem of radical Islam. Not by any means.

But Geert really is not making it any easier to tackle that problem by painting all Muslims as violent Islamists.

He isn't.

By the way, which Muslims are you referring to when you say 'those people'?

The million.

[XRoot]

He isn't.

Yes.

The million.

Perfect. Not that I accept your counter, but do you object to working in that direction anyways (to get their buy-in to the democratic process)?

How would you possibly know what are and what are not the motivations of a million people (actually a good number less, since very many were born and raised there) for moving to the Netherlands, by the way?

[Trampas]

Yes.



Perfect. Not that I accept your counter, but do you object to working in that direction anyways (to get their buy-in to the democratic process)?

How would you possibly know what are and what are not the motivations of a million people (actually a good number less, since very many were born and raised there) for moving to the Netherlands, by the way?

Simple. I just look at how Muslims have failed to integrate in the Netherlands and indeed everywhere else. The very notion that this exponentially increasing population (40,000 in 1970) is somehow and at some stage about to reflect liberal Dutch views is simply preposterous.

[Thranduil]

It will soon be illegal in Ireland to deny 'the' holocaust, inciting hatred against racial or religious groups will also be illegal under the proposed European Union Directive for Combating Racism and Xenophobia.

The battle against free speech isn't won overnight in one grand draconian gesture, instead it happens in little steps, steps so small and smooth nobody knows when it is appropriate to actually complain about what is happening, until it's too late. In other cases laws aren't used, in the case of internet censorship the ISP's would have a gentleman's agreement with the government to voluntarily block whatever sites the government wants blocked.

If Britain can use a prevention of terrorism law against Iceland then a government will have no qualms about misusing any law curbing free speech, we may even see any criticism of immigration issues for example falling under these laws ostensibly directed against inciting racial hatred.

It was only supposed to be an Economic Union, holy cow - how did this happen?

THose people haven't come to Europe to "buy in" to anything, least of all the "liberal democratic process". As for what Wilders is "peddling", we will see just how populist it is during his trial, but "cheap" it isn't given the fact that Wilders needs a 24 hour armed guard and is unable to sleep in his own bed.

I am as much concerned about Jewish hegemonic control of the organs of information in the West as i am of the possible presence of Jihadis, a glance at ownership of media in the UK for example reveals that an overwhelming majority is controlled by Jewish persons, being Jewish their allegiance to zionism is obviously fair game for inspection.

Zionism itself is as hostile and alien an ideology as Wahhabism and is potentially much more dangerous, by manipulating how zionism is portrayed in the West and censoring criticism of Israel zionist owned media recruits Western Nations into it's schemes, schemes that are not in our interest as Western Europeans. This is not good for our security as many Muslims harbor a righteous sense of anger towards Israel's excesses in the region.

Our media should be non-biased. In fact, if someone managed to code a law that makes it compulsory for media to be non-biased, if someone somehow figured out how to actually do that in a watertight way - that would be the first and possibly the only free speech infringement i might support.

[XRoot]

Simple. I just look at how Muslims have failed to integrate in the Netherlands and indeed everywhere else. The very notion that this exponentially increasing population (40,000 in 1970) is somehow and at some stage about to reflect liberal Dutch views is simply preposterous.

That's a narrow-sighted view.

You're assuming, for a start, that none of the million Muslims in the Netherlands already have bought-in to Dutch democracy. This is not true. Muslims have been represented with varying emphases in municipal and district municipal elections. Leaders of Muslim organizations regularly stand as candidates for the regular parties, the left-wing Groenlinks for example, even for the CDA (Christian Democrats!). There exists in NL an Islamic Foundation for the Advancement of Integration, which has set up a national association for Muslims with political interests (DC94, Debating Club 94).

Also, 'liberal Dutch views' is perhaps a bit overstated, and something of a generalization.

One of the parties in the current coalition is the ChristenUnie (strongly supported in the Dutch Bible Belt) - these are the guys spearheading the Jihad against fun which is underway at the moment (pushing regulation changes to force the closure of coffeeshops, for example, and a lot have been forced to close, or kicking up a fuss about lingerie adverts).

So which end of the spectrum of Dutch views should Muslims suddenly start reflecting for you to consider them integrated?

Actually, you should expand on that for me. What criteria must be met before you'd consider someone 'integrated'?

And, since you blithely skipped past it last time out, do you object to working towards increasing Muslim buy-in to the democratic process?

[XRoot]

and indeed everywhere else.

The United States of America.

[Alterego]

In which case the caravan raiders book should be banned. As should your own posts. If there is something that incites hatred against Muslims it's their perceived threat on the freedoms of non adherents. And you are living up to this reputation. And you don't get to decide what the "greater good" is for the rest of us. If you are going to subscribe and promote what others might see as a vile ideology you must be prepared to accept flak like for example Neo Nazis do

Stop being infantile! Listen mate, your perceived freedoms are your own issue (and they are obviously an issue, you harp on about them enough). On the issue of who decides what is good for others, then I leave this to the One who knows the heart of man, He and He alone makes those decisions. Many others have said this, I don't mind discussing an ideology, even your superstition. But if you can't behave yourself and act in a civil manner then I can't be bothered.

[Alterego]

Simple. I just look at how Muslims have failed to integrate in the Netherlands and indeed everywhere else. The very notion that this exponentially increasing population (40,000 in 1970) is somehow and at some stage about to reflect liberal Dutch views is simply preposterous.

Yawn, go slither under that rock - cockroach. It is people like you who have failed to integrate and change with the times, what are you Hitler Youth?