Is Irish Left comparable with Nazi Ideology?

[Fermoy]

Someone's hurt. When farmboy resorts to such words, it's only because he's exposed.

Who is this farm boy that yanshuf harps on about ?

Is 'farmboy' some sort of pejorative code word for Palestinian ?

[Fermoy]

So all the palestinian refugees who were born in the last 60 years and who have never actually set foot on one piece of Israel, can't actually return to that place.......on account of them never having been there. Fermoy you're a genius. Not only have you shown us that Israel's aid from the US in the 25 years from 49 - 74 was a pittance and the Arabs got three times as much as well as getting aid from Asia, EU, Eastern Europe and Russia....which israel couldn't get, but you now show why Palestinian refugees have no argument or dispute with israel about returning. After all they were never actually there, and "in reality, you have to have actually been somewhere, to return to that place". Fermoy, I said it before and I'll say it again - you're a true and real friend of Israel. Thank you so much.

Has it escaped your notice , that jews , zionists ones included , are also excluded by this definition .
Well they should be , but the rules are different for zionists .... cos they are , according to the Great Lie , the chosen people , eh .


The matter is settled , L'Chaim is an Unprincipled Liar

[Fermoy]

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Fascism is an extreme social movement that arose in Europe between the wars in response to the crisis-ridden capitalism of the early 20th century. It emerged under the threat of a workers’ revolution when bourgeois democracy had exhausted its ability to contain the working class. Its function was to smash the revolutionary vanguard before it could mobilise the working class in a revolutionary uprising. It employed an extreme nationalist, racist ideology in order to bind together the middle classes with sections of the working class in the name of defending the nation from communism.

Zionism is the founding ideology of the Israeli state. It is based on several founding myths that declare Jews’ God-given right to be the exclusive occupants of Palestine. It defends that right by constant reference to anti-semitism and the ‘holocaust’.

Zionism as a doctrine fatalistically submitted to anti-semitism. In the Europe of the early 20th century anti-semitic movements called on all Jews to ‘get out’. Zionism took up this call to provide a homeland to escape to. Yet in doing so, Zionism made many deals with the European ruling classes, not least the Nazis, in return for their cooperation in transferring Jews to Palestine. The cost of these agreements to Jews was millions of more deaths than would have been the case had the Zionists not existed.

The Zionists agreements with the Nazis were to concentrate Jews for shipment to labour camps and extermination camps in exchange for the freedom to select and relocate some Jews to Palestine.

Where the Zionists were weak, resistance to Nazi extermination saved the majority of Jews. In some countries active opposition prevented any transportation and killing (Denmark). Where Jews fled Europe into the Ukraine or Russia they survived in their millions.

Thus Zionism is not an antidote to fascism but its junior partner in the death and destruction of Jews.

The sacrifice of Jewish workers can only be explained by a Zionism that is the class ideology of Jewish capital. The Zionists representing the interests of the Jewish bourgeoisie which needed a homeland to defend their capital. Jews as finance capitalists facing the collapse of European capitalism before and after WW1 were both bankrupted by national capitals with which they were associated and forced to flee. Those who could not move their capital to new countries wanted to found a Jewish state to protect their capital. Not only that, they wanted a Jewish working class, selected from the European working class to establish a capitalist economy in Palestine.

The price paid by Jewish workers who were rounded up by Zionist organisations to feed the Nazi’s labour and extermination camps proved that Zionism was motivated by exactly the same class interests as the Fascists in Europe. They wanted to select a racially pure and strong stock out of those ‘concentrated’ in Europe, take them out of the hands of the ‘anti-semites’ who would work them to death, and save them for shipment to Palestine where they would become the core of a Jewish working class.

Just as the European capitalist powers were prepared to sacrifice millions of workers in wars to defend their capital, the millions of weak, old and otherwise defective Jews who would not be of any ‘use-value’ in Palestine were similarly sacrificed.

But if Palestine was already being formed as a racially pure Jewish state in collaboration with the fascists, could it be any less fascist?

First, Zionist reactionary nationalism was the ideology of Jewish capital facing destruction during the capitalist crisis of the interwar years and organised bourgeois, petty bourgeois and working class settlers to found a national homeland for Jewish capital.

Second, the class collaboration with the Nazi’s scapegoating of Jews, betrayed working class Jews into the labour and extermination camps and played into the Nazi’s objective to smash the communist movement. This complicity was critical, since working class Jews were strongly overrepresented in working class struggles and revolutionary organisations and even more so in the leadership of these organisations. Where the Zionists were unable to separate Jewish workers from the rest of the working class their role in the resistance proved that this was the only way to defeat fascism.

Finally, the very act of establishing the state of Israel mimicked the Nazi invasion and seizure of foreign lands. Palestine was already occupied by a large majority of non-Jews. The peasant and working class inhabitants were evicted, relocated in ghettos and concentration camps, and then terrorised by a policy of military genocide.

Nevertheless, despite its history, its complicity with Nazism, and its occupation of Palestine, the Zionists are not fascists. They are extreme racist nationalist colonial settlers who in many ways resemble fascists. But since the Israeli working class is also Zionist there is no need for the Israeli bourgeoisie to impose a fascist reaction to smash any communist movement among Israeli workers. When Israeli workers turn against Zionism and unconditionally support the Palestinian struggle for self-determination, then we will see the Zionist regime resort to fascism.

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[The Caped Cod]

But you didn't say you don't like Zionism (though I assume you don't). You made it about the people. You said you don't like Zionists. Can you not see the difference? You said uou "call members of the Zionist party Zionists" and you went on to say you "don't like them". What you are doing is lumping all Zionists together, be that past and present israeli governments, the main opposition parties and all their supporters, who would be almost to the 100% Israeli Jews. You don't like them. Then there's most of the Jews living outside of Israel who would mostly be Zionists too. You don't like them. The non-Jews around the world who are also Zionists, you don't like them. Now that is an irrational dislike and it's based in racism. You are the one who made it about the people instead of the political ideal.

That's whay I asked about your age a while ago. I get the impression that you are very young and you can't see the difference between Zionism and Zionists. But it's something you should look at.

READ THE THREAD TITLE, IDIOT. So a jewish person can call others Nazis, but cannot have the same insult returned. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. You and Yanshuf have thrown the 'anti semite' insult all around and you claim to use it sparingly but that is a very obvious lie.

So you get the impression that I am very young. You are wrong. Perhaps I'm younger than you, perhaps not, but I'm old enought to see through your vain attempts at controlling the conversation by creating an anti semite strawman.

Jewish superiority of the Chosen People' is the same as Arian sumpremecy of the 'Master Race'. If the cap fits, wear it and THAT is something you both should look at.

[The Caped Cod]

caped code:



I emphasized one of your funniest sentences.

It could have had a bit of seriousness, if not coming from a hypocrite.

I don't hide behind anything, you, though, try to hide behind the antizionist cloak, when it's obvious you deny Jewish right to self determination, a thing that without any doubt makes you an antisemite. Yet, you're not in denial, cause you know quite well what the meaning of your posts is.

You'd better crawl quietly back into your den and make noises of a carpet.

You hide behind your religion. And so does L'Chaim. Any critism fo your political ideology is met with 'anti-semite, anti semite'. Yoou both act is if the fact that you are jewish precludes you from committing atrocities or being evil. Keep chasing your tail muppet, hatemonger.

Can you provide a quote were I said that. Another imaginary arguement because you cannot cope with actaul posts. I've said nothing on this post about Jewish self determination. I've said nothing about the right of Israel to exist as a State. Can't you find a better strawman than that. Of course not. Your limted list of premade responses probably doesn't cover it.

You'd better crawl quietly back into your den and make noises of a carpe

And once again you think you can intimidate people on the forum. Well I'm not a Palestinian child in a walled up ghetto so you don't impress me.
Once agian your being....



To other readers. Don't go blaming Israel or Judaism on these two asshôles. They are the equivalent of two KKK members defending US actions in Iraq. If you disagree with them you're just a dirty Commie. Pair of muppets

[Fermoy]

You hide behind your religion. And so does L'Chaim. Any critism fo your political ideology is met with 'anti-semite, anti semite'. Yoou both act is if the fact that you are jewish precludes you from committing atrocities or being evil. Keep chasing your tail muppet, hatemonger.

Can you provide a quote were I said that. Another imaginary arguement because you cannot cope with actaul posts. I've said nothing on this post about Jewish self determination. I've said nothing about the right of Israel to exist as a State. Can't you find a better strawman than that. Of course not. Your limted list of premade responses probably doesn't cover it.



And once again you think you can intimidate people on the forum. Well I'm not a Palestinian child in a walled up ghetto so you don't impress me.
Once agian your being....



To other readers. Don't go blaming Israel or Judaism on these two asshôles. They are the equivalent of two KKK members defending US actions in Iraq. If you disagree with them you're just a dirty Commie. Pair of muppets

This anit-semite bleat is nothing but a sniper hide for cowards.

I don't give a stuff , if I want to call a semite scum I will , (and even if it were possible to for a jew to be a semite , them too)
Free speech allows me to tell the truth.
But as it stands , I have not had any to call do that .

I do think that theses two apologists for the facist zionist illegal state of israel are scum tho .
When they have finally floated to the top , the hot air inside then will cause then to fluck off .
The sooner the better

[edg]

But you didn't say you don't like Zionism (though I assume you don't). You made it about the people. You said you don't like Zionists. Can you not see the difference? You said uou "call members of the Zionist party Zionists" and you went on to say you "don't like them". What you are doing is lumping all Zionists together, be that past and present israeli governments, the main opposition parties and all their supporters, who would be almost to the 100% Israeli Jews. You don't like them. Then there's most of the Jews living outside of Israel who would mostly be Zionists too. You don't like them. The non-Jews around the world who are also Zionists, you don't like them. Now that is an irrational dislike and it's based in racism. You are the one who made it about the people instead of the political ideal.

That's whay I asked about your age a while ago. I get the impression that you are very young and you can't see the difference between Zionism and Zionists. But it's something you should look at.

First, Zionism is not reserved for Jewish people. There are plenty of Christians who believe in Zionism.

Also, not all people who support zionism would go as far as to say, "I am a Zionist".

Secondly, I dont like dentists.

This does not mean I cant be freinds with them. I just dont like them in their capacity of a dentist.

You can try in vain to make me think I hate all Jews, but I dont!
You have no influence over who I love or hate.

[L'Chaim]

First, Zionism is not reserved for Jewish people. There are plenty of Christians who believe in Zionism.

Also, not all people who support zionism would go as far as to say, "I am a Zionist".

Secondly, I dont like dentists.

This does not mean I cant be freinds with them. I just dont like them in their capacity of a dentist.

You can try in vain to make me think I hate all Jews, but I dont!
You have no influence over who I love or hate.

I know there are plenty of Christians who believe in Zionism (see the post you were responding where I said "the non-Jews around the world who are also Zionists, you don't like them). And you probably don't like dentists, but you can't equate that with your irrational dislike of Zionists. For instance would you refer to dentists the way you referred to Zionists "it shows the total lunacy of the Zionists"? Would you say something like this about dentists as you did about Zionists "You wonder why people compare Zionists to Nazis' followed up with "(That's) why people all over the civilised world would do that". Would you accuse dentists of ethnic cleansing like you do Zionists? Would you refer to dentists like this quote you made about Zionists "The thing I don't like about Zionists is that they all support the degradation of the palestinian people" (on that quote alone you're a racist).

Now you have all those quotes you made about Zionists after it was pointed out to you that the majority of Jews inside and outside of israel are Zionists, all the Israeli governments since the foundation of the state were Zionist governments and most of the main opposition parties in Israel are Zionist. You dislike them all and you use quotes like those above to insult that amount of people. And then of course there are all the non-Jewish Zionists you would dislike too. That's an irrational dislike you have there. It's based in anti-semitism, discrimination and racism.

You just don't seem to understand the difference between disliking a political ideal (though you come across as not having a clue what Zionism actually is) and disliking the people who support that principle. You lump millions of people together because of their political beliefs and you say you don't like them and you make racist comments about them.

[Fermoy]

the majority of Jews inside and outside of israel are Zionists,

Hey look , another lie from L'Chaim .


The matter is settled , L'Chaim is an Unprincipled Liar

[edg]

I know there are plenty of Christians who believe in Zionism (see the post you were responding where I said "the non-Jews around the world who are also Zionists, you don't like them). And you probably don't like dentists, but you can't equate that with your irrational dislike of Zionists. For instance would you refer to dentists the way you referred to Zionists "it shows the total lunacy of the Zionists"? Would you say something like this about dentists as you did about Zionists "You wonder why people compare Zionists to Nazis' followed up with "(That's) why people all over the civilised world would do that". Would you accuse dentists of ethnic cleansing like you do Zionists? Would you refer to dentists like this quote you made about Zionists "The thing I don't like about Zionists is that they all support the degradation of the palestinian people" (on that quote alone you're a racist).

Now you have all those quotes you made about Zionists after it was pointed out to you that the majority of Jews inside and outside of israel are Zionists, all the Israeli governments since the foundation of the state were Zionist governments and most of the main opposition parties in Israel are Zionist. You dislike them all and you use quotes like those above to insult that amount of people. And then of course there are all the non-Jewish Zionists you would dislike too. That's an irrational dislike you have there. It's based in anti-semitism, discrimination and racism.

You just don't seem to understand the difference between disliking a political ideal (though you come across as not having a clue what Zionism actually is) and disliking the people who support that principle. You lump millions of people together because of their political beliefs and you say you don't like them and you make racist comments about them.

This is funny!

Dentists dont deny the existence of the Palestinians for one!

I am not the one who has the problem seperating the idiology from the people.

YOU ARE!

You think because I dont like Zionism, I hate everyone who agrees with Zionism. That is not true.

And lastly, you are now calling me racist because I dont like zionism?

hahahhahahahahahahaha............You are too much.....