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Last edited by khavakoz; 30th November 2008 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Didn't intend to post
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
Bullsh1t of the highest order, usual religionist claptrap. Just take yourself off with a nice book on logic and examine the differences between Correlation and Causation.Originally Posted by Al.
It is entirely arguable whether or not Hitler, Stalin and Mao were atheists or otherwise, with most historical data suggesting not. Nevertheless, unless it can be demonstrated that their actions were in pursuit of that atheism - that the horrors perpetrated by them were in direct pursuit of some atheist goal - then I don't see what point you are seeking to make.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
I'm trying now to think of wars whose primary motives were indeed religious, and not merely because some magnate thought it expedient to use a religious pretext. The Crusades come to mind in that one. Which one of the crusader barons went to l'Outremer out of religious devotion, and not merely because he was a second son with a paltry amount of land, whose appetite was whetted by the rich cities of the levant.
Do you think what they believe is rational? There is certainly no reason for anyone to think that it is if you don't believe what they believe
The analogy is again flawed. Oskar Schindler was a Nazi and presumably harmeless. Therefore to criticise Nazism or people who call themselveves Nazis would be to be a Naziphobes by those standards.
The problem is, your fear of Islam and those who hold islamic beliefs is only rational if you limit that fear to those who hold those exact beliefs of which you are afraid, i.e. world domination, murdering in the name of Allah. The problem of course lies in the fact that you wish to tar every muslim person with those beliefs, and wish to assert that Islam is, and only can be, a fundamentalist's charter. Therefore, although your fears are valid and rational to certain fundamentalist Muslims, they are not valid nor rational in regard to Islam as a whole. Ergo, you are holding an irrational fear of an entire religion and its adherents . Is arachnophobia a rational fear by virtue of the fact that somewhere there are indeed poisonous spiders? Therefore I think phobia is an appropriate word for what I describe.
As for spiders Arachnaphobia is generally attributed to people who live in regions where only the non-poisoness variety inhabit. In any event "Islamaphobia" refers to the ideology not individual adherents
They are on the bottom wrung of global society. I think thats evidence enoughDepends on how you use the evidence it seems.
Charity does not require any Islamic justification. Getting upset about a cartoon probably doesI'm quite sure it does, unfortunately for your argument it influences a minority to commit acts of cruelty and slaughter, and a majority to live moral lives and indulge in charity.
And I don't tar all Muslims with the same brush. But I know that these ideologies have ugly messages that can induce their adherents to evil and so these messages should should be faught.
But I don't tar all communists with the same brush? Indeed I know quite a few. I do not presume they are all going to engage in mass collectivisation or purges, or send individuals off to gulags in Siberia or try to establish a cultural revolution. I'm not afraid of communism or communists, because I know that not every communist holds the same beliefs. If I started to presume that because someone was a communist, they supported stalin-like purges, then I would be engaging in inaccurrate prejudice, and wandering into the grounds of irrational phobia.
I didn't. But I can tar them for promoting the ideology which leads to such thingsGood, so therefore you cannot tar every muslim with the same brush, or islam as a whole, on the basis that some pervert the religion in order to commit atrocities.
Not at all. I'm glad that evil ideologies can be thaught. That way their visible and I can fight them and expose their foolishnessAre you likewise afraid of university courses?
And before you state that you are only afraid of this motivation, because it produces violence, does that mean that you are afraid of all philosophies/believes/influences that have at one stage or another motivated influenced individuals to commit acts of violence? Are you afraid of democracy?
Muslims? Or individuals who are afraid of Muslims?
How about in reverse. Al Quaeda are evil vicious killers, and they subscribe to Islam, therefore Islam is evil and vicious. Oskar Schindler was kind and generous, and he subscribed to Nazism, therefoe Nazism produces kind and generous individuals?The analogy is again flawed. Oskar Schindler was a Nazi and presumably harmeless. Therefore to criticise Nazism or people who call themselveves Nazis would be to be a Naziphobes by those standards.
The problem with your analogy, of course, is that Oskar Schindler did not adhere to the basic tenets/prequisites of Nazism, racial superiority for example, he even disagreed with the war effort. What you have to prove is that the attitude of fundamentalists, are basic prerequisites for being a Muslim, which would warrant you being afraid of Muslims and Islam as a whole.
But their fear isn't irrational because some spiders do indeed bite surely? (Btw, all countries have venomous spiders!) And no, Islamaphobia refers to fear of both Islam and its adherents. Before you try to change around terminology again, to remember is was us in the pc left who invented it.
As for spiders Arachnaphobia is generally attributed to people who live in regions where only the non-poisoness variety inhabit. In any event "Islamaphobia" refers to the ideology not individual adherents.
They are not surrounded by countries doing a whole lot better, and there are many steps further down.They are on the bottom wrung of global society. I think thats evidence enough
What does it require to be upset about a Martin Scorsesee film. I do love these random little titbits of yours, they do tend to liven up a discussion without me feeling in any way that you have advanced your argument at all. However, perhaps you should research how donations to charity compare with religious and non-religious.Charity does not require any Islamic justification. Getting upset about a cartoon probably does
Technically, all of them can. But if you do not think that all muslims hold such beliefs, (finally, progress), then now maybe you can perhaps dissociate these issues some what from islam and realise there is more to islamic terrorism than the islamic element. Various elements, and I accept Islam can be one, need to be juxtapositioned before massive terrorism erupts. Had Indian Muslims been on the top rung of the ladder in Indian society since 1948, I doubt what happened last week would have occurred. However, the opposite was true. Had the Thai government not try to Siamize it's southern malay muslim population, an Islamic insurrection would not have occurred. There are more common factors than just islam in these many instances of terrorism. Therefore it is not merely a question of Islam making an individual a terrorist, there is always a spark that sets off a powder keg.And I don't tar all Muslims with the same brush. But I know that these ideologies have ugly messages that can induce their adherents to evil and so these messages should should be faught.
Once again, should we criticise the left from promoting an ideology that can lead to Stalinistic purges? Or the right for Nazism?I didn't. But I can tar them for promoting the ideology which teaches such things
You did not specify evil ideologies. You merely stated you disliked all things that can have an influence on individuals. That was what I was referring to.Not at all. I'm glad that evil ideologies can be thaught. That way their visible and I can fight them and expose their foolishness
The talk in Pakistan is of war. Troops are moving to the Indian border...
No the teachings of both are. The fact that both have adherents of better charachter excuses neither
I'm not afraid of them I feel contempt for them for promoting such stupidity and having leaving the rest of us to deal with the consequences of it's stupidityThe problem with your analogy, of course, is that Oskar Schindler did not adhere to the basic tenets/prequisites of Nazism, racial superiority for example, he even disagreed with the war effort. What you have to prove is that the attitude of fundamentalists, are basic prerequisites for being a Muslim, which would warrant you being afraid of Muslims and Islam as a whole.
Never encountered such a spider. And I'm glad you admitted that you invented it. Always be wary of terminology invented by political movements
But their fear isn't irrational because some spiders do indeed bite surely? (Btw, all countries have venomous spiders!) And no, Islamaphobia refers to fear of both Islam and its adherents. Before you try to change around terminology again, to remember is was us in the pc left who invented it.
Because the ones they are surrounded by are also muslim countries. But that wasn't the pointThey are not surrounded by countries doing a whole lot better, and there are many steps further down.
1. Yes Christian victimhood is as pathetic as Muslim victimhood. What's your pointWhat does it require to be upset about a Martin Scorsesee film. I do love these random little titbits of yours, they do tend to liven up a discussion without me feeling in any way that you have advanced your argument at all. However, perhaps you should research how donations to charity compare with religious and non-religious.
2. Tried to but as contributors to charity are not generally asked of their metaphysical positions except for those who insist on such things there is no real data available.
Muslims are on the top wrung of every society they govern and yet....well need I say more
Technically, all of them can. But if you do not think that all muslims hold such beliefs, (finally, progress), then now maybe you can perhaps dissociate these issues some what from islam and realise there is more to islamic terrorism than the islamic element. Various elements, and I accept Islam can be one, need to be juxtapositioned before massive terrorism erupts. Had Indian Muslims been on the top rung of the ladder in Indian society since 1948, I doubt what happened last week would have occurred. However, the opposite was true. Had the Thai government not try to Siamize it's southern malay muslim population, an Islamic insurrection would not have occurred. There are more common factors than just islam in these many instances of terrorism. Therefore it is not merely a question of Islam making an individual a terrorist, there is always a spark that sets off a powder keg.
Yes
Once again, should we criticise the left from promoting an ideology that can lead to Stalinistic purges? Or the right for Nazism?
I did. Nazism, Communism, Islam
You did not specify evil ideologies. You merely stated you disliked all things that can have an influence on individuals. That was what I was referring to.
The doctors who conducted the post mortem said the bodies of the terrorists were beyond recognition. "Their faces were beyond recognition."
There was no way of identifying them," he said. Asked how, if this is the case, they knew the bodies were indeed those of the terrorists, he said: "The security forces that brought the bodies told us that those were the bodies of the terrorists," he said, adding there was no other way they could have identified the bodies.
Doctors shocked at hostages's torture
And they never will be identified.
All we have is a clear photo of one attacker. The only attacker we are told was captured alive.
Conveniently, he has spilled the beans on the entire operation.
Trained in Pakistan.
Got together 20 minutes down the road from where I am now.. loaded up on drugs and shot the sh*t out of Bombay.
He even described the windbreakers they were wearing.
So now we know everything that happened that day. No need for an investigation here, clearly.
And there won't be one.
Last edited by Asi-Irish; 30th November 2008 at 07:38 PM.
Any chance of a "Clash of Civilizations" thread elsewhere on the board so we actually discuss the attacks?
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