Terrorist attack in Mumbai: 80 feared dead

[garlandgreen]

You don't have to. He, Trampas and I clearly understood the terms he employed. You did not. So either you are being intellectually dishonest by subsequently altering the terms of the question in order to engage in cheap point scoring, or you have a distinct inability to understand word meanings from their context.

No I just happen to believe that intent is more important than pretense

The question was badly worded and very vague and in no way furthered the discussion. I felt no need to reply to it. As for your second point, rather than give you an answer to your question, I preferred to give you my reason for asking it, as the presumptions you outlined are exactly the cause of the blatant islamophobia I described above.

Sticks & Stones and still unanswered.

Nope, it is not. Islam is not one set of monolithic rigidly defined beliefs that either one subscribes to, or one doesn't. Which beliefs one subscribes to, which beliefs or interpretations one favors, or which beliefs one rejects, depends on the individual, the scholastic tradition, the region, the local culture, the superdivision between Shia and Sunni, the various judicial schools which implement Sharia in that particular state. Simple observation of the Muslim world would give you that. A muslim therefore, is someone who's beliefs lie in the Koran. Not all of his beliefs are found in the sunna, not all of the sunna represent his beliefs. It's a lose definition, not a black and white one, which is perhaps why you dislike it.

I never said it was a black and white one. I'm quite aware of the Sunnah and Hadith and the distinction between the three. My question was about the "divine" word the Qur'an.

Is there a reason, other than the arbitrary ones your very found of, why phobia should not be attached to an ideology?

And to answer your question: E. Belfort Bax: Marxophobia (1898)

You're fond of using the word "arbitrary". Do you know what that word means. As for "Marxophobia" never heard of it. It was wrong there and it's wrong here. Unless you think that the suffix "phobia" should be applied any ideology is criticized. How about Naziphobia for critics of skinheads. Or better yet don't make up words that are idiotic to slur people who you disagree with. Use the power of argument.

[garlandgreen]

To be utterly pedantic, Sunnis and Shi'as are divided on one point, that being successionhood of the presumed descendants of Muhammad to the Caliphate.

The Ibadis' beliefs are divergent on the point of seeing God in the afterlife (Ibadis believe that God will never be seen), the time of "creation" of the Koran, as well as Muslims that enter Jahannam, or "Hell" (Sunnis regard this as a sort of "purgatory"; Ibadis believe that those Muslims will remain there for eternity). There are still other "Koran-only" Muslims that reject the Hadith.

As for those that practice Judaism (the religion), there are Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed divisions among the Rabbinical orders, Karaites (that reject Rabbinical Judaism and the Talmud; especially rejecting the Kabbalah in addition), and Hasidic cults (such as the Lubavitchers).

I'm trying to figure out what this particular side discussion has to do with the subject of the thread. Anyone care to clarify?

Someone was trying to equate criticism of Muslims for their atrocities with criticism of Jews for theirs. I was pointing out that the same someone was confusing (delibarate or otherwise) religion with ethnicity. The confusion is admittedly cultural. We reinforce the myth that that Jew=Judaist (of whatever stripe).

So we'll do this once again

Jew= Someone born of a certain lineage

Judaist= Someone who chooses to believe to an evil superstition which gave birth to two other evil superstitions, each of which has contempt for their forbearers

Muslim= One who chooses to believe the Arabian and worst variant of these three.

One is innocent. The other two are not.

But people want to link one the two supertitions to the innocent so that they can

1. Call one of them the same thing as the innocent i.e Jew- Judaist=Jew

2. Say therefore that since the Arabian Superstition adherent - Muslim is just another superstition and therefore to criticise it is to give Judaist/Jew preferential treatment.

It's a pretty hoary trick but an obvious one

[Colada]

A friend sent me this. I rather agree with most of it. Not all, but most.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]A German's View on Islam[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.
It is the fanatics who march. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Africa[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS] and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or hono[FONT=Arial][COLOR=#0000ff][SIZE=2]U[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]r- kill. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]The hard quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]China[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]'s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Japan[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS] murdered and slaughtered its way across [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]South East Asia[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS] in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]And, who can forget [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Rwanda[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS] , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our posers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Germany[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS] , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=2][FONT=Tahoma][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=1][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Helvetica]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=4][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Comic Sans MS]As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Simon.D]

A friend sent me this. I rather agree with most of it. Not all, but most.

I think that's a very well made and valid point.. Muslims who believe that all this killing in the name of Islam is wrong are scarily silent on the subject, which directly enables other members of their community to come out in support of, or even commit these atrocities...

I'm sure Mujahid has met and prayed with many Muslims who sympathize with much of this violence being waged in the name of Islam, believing it to be completely justified.. He may not share these belief's, but he facilitates them by leaving them unchallenged...

I wonder if the imam in Clonskeagh mosque denounced the actions of those scumbags in last Friday's prayers? I seriously doubt it, and I'd say most mosques the world over fail to properly address these events, refusing to acknowledge this growing blemish on their religion... Meaning before long, more and more Muslims will wake up to find that their own mosque and community has been hijacked by these fascists, and that this time it's their own kids with bombs strapped around their waist..

[TexAG]

Fears of more British dead in Bombay attacks - Times Online

[Riadach]

No I just happen to believe that intent is more important than pretense

You will of course elaborate on this in the context. It may be that I am a tad too tipsy to understand what you mean, or more than likely, you are willing to engage in obfuscation to again muddy the waters.

Sticks & Stones and still unanswered.

It doesn't need to be answered to further the discusssion, hence it remains unanswered. It merely seemed you were trying to avoid engaging with the point.

I never said it was a black and white one. I'm quite aware of the Sunnah and Hadith and the distinction between the three. My question was about the "divine" word the Qur'an.

My point remains and has always been that regardless of whether the word is 'divine' or not, it is still contradictory. Many muslims thus are faced with a choice about which interpretation they identify with. Thus we can assert that one cannot define a muslim by a specific, fix set of beliefs.

You're fond of using the word "arbitrary". Do you know what that word means. As for "Marxophobia" never heard of it. It was wrong there and it's wrong here. Unless you think that the suffix "phobia" should be applied any ideology is criticized. How about Naziphobia for critics of skinheads. Or better yet don't make up words that are idiotic to slur people who you disagree with. Use the power of argument.

Abitrary or something abitrary in my opinion it something that exists by virtue of the fact that it exists. An arbitrary rule for example, does not exist because it has been deduced by reason or practice, but because somebody said so, and gave no good explanation for it. Thus in this instance, you stated that phobia could not refer to an ideology. No good reason existed for that, indeed even if there had not been precedent for phobia to be used in the context of an ideology, it still would not mean that it couldn't. Phobia is a good term in my opinion, as it highlights that there is an unwarranted fear, by many in the western world, of those who hold the islamic faith. But rather than engage with what you deem to be the idiocy of the nomenclature, why do you not engage with the point I made about how anti-islamism (better?) comes dangerously close to being on the same par with racism.

[Al.]

Judaist= Someone who chooses to believe to an evil superstition which gave birth to two other evil superstitions, each of which has contempt for their forbearers

Muslim= One who chooses to believe the Arabian and worst variant of these three

Oh I see. Trying to force a certain agenda through. Williing to bludgeon incidental facts along the way. As well as wreck the thread.

Just for the record, some of the bloodiest atrocities have been committed by atheists. So really, no "side" has their hands clean.

[Asi-Irish]

To get back on topic... interesting article here suggesting the attacks were planned a year in advance.

In a shocking revelation on late Friday night, it has been reported that one of the terrorists holed up in hotel Taj Mahal was doing his internship there as Trainee Chef for past 10 months.

The revelation came after the family of one of the Trainee Chef who was killed inside the hotel came out to reveal that the deceased called them before dying and said that he has been shot by his friends.

This disclosure has made it clear that there were more terrorists in the hotel than suspected. This revelation has also made it clear that the planning of this attack was going on for at least a year and the terrorists had everything in place to carry off this attack.

It is also suspected that this terrorist might have amassed arms and ammunition in the hotel prior to the attack, which prolonged the battle. He is also suspected to have helped in planning the attacks as he had access to all parts of the hotel and knew the location inside out.

A minister had anonymously revealed on Thursday that the terrorists had set up ‘control rooms’ inside the hotel from where they launched the attack.

After this revelation, another possibility has arisen that there may be more than one terrorists working in various hotels that have been attacked and might be present at some other places also. This has increased the pressure on security forces as well because now it is difficult to ascertain the number of terrorists killed in the operations and those who are roaming free.

Now, security forces will have toil really hard to nab other terrorists if any of them is still at large.
SHOCKER - One Terrorist was a Chef at Taj | India.com

[Asi-Irish]

Also....

ISLAMABAD: Former Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) ISI Chief General (Retd.) Hameed Gul has said that Mumbai incident is an international based conspiracy to deprive Pakistan of its atomic power. Taking to a private TV channel on Friday, he said that to involve Pakistan in the incident reflected that some forces wanted to declare Pakistan a failure state as somehow it had become necessary to make Pakistan knee down in order to snatch its atomic power away.

He said that the way militants entered into the hotels and executed their plan in extremist Hindus like Bal Thakrey and Narender Modi’s area it seemed impossible without internal support adding these people had grudge with Muslims and wanted to defame them all over the world.

He said that the militants were named as Dakan Mujahedeen and it was particularly ridicules when neither their demands were brought to surface nor their target was clear. He said that India is habitual to accuse Pakistan whenever any mishap takes place as in the case of Samjhota Express but it could not prove the allegations and in Maligaon incident Indian Col. Srikanth Proat was later found guilty.

He feared that India would deploy its army on the boarders, like 2002 when a bloody incident took place on December 13, 2001 out side Indian parliament, to curb Kashmiris’ freedom movement and deprive Pakistan of its atomic assets saying it would be in-competency of the government if India gets success in its plane.

To a question, he said that US wanted to see Indian army in Afghanistan to disintegrate the country as new maps used to publish form US showing divided Pakistan in different four parts. When asked, the blockage of water and make the country knee down before IMF was a part of pre-planned trick.-SANA
Mumbai mayhem conspiracy to hit nuke: Gul | Pakistan Times!

[Asi-Irish]

Wow... it seems the only surviving terrorist happens to be the guy in the photos. It is being said that he is Pakistani. He is giving a full account of his involvement and claims to have departed from Karachi.

'I was told to kill to my last breath': Captured terrorist's account of Mumbai massacre reveals plan was to kill 5,000 | Mail Online

Meanwhile, in Karachi gunmen open fire indiscriminately on civilians, killing 18. The death toll in the story below has since been revised upwards.

14 killed in Karachi violence - GEO.tv