Guantanamo Hunger Strikers

[agora]

Surely you're ignoring the fact that members of Al Queda have already been tried and convicted in open court (that is, where the media and public can view the proceedings), both here in Europe and overseas. If it could be done in the past it can be done again. Generally such trials do far more to discredit the cause of islamic fundamentalism than secretive military tribunals do as quite often the defendants will happily demonstrate how stupid their ideology is.
I remember a few years ago when there were several young men on trial for a plot to blow up the Christmas markets in the French city of Strasbourg. As one of the men was being led away after his conviction he screamed at the courtroom: "You're all a pile of stinking Jews!". Personally I think the more chance people are given to demonstrate the mindset of Al Queda the less credibility it will have.

[Libero]

Surely you're ignoring the fact that members of Al Queda have already been tried and convicted in open court (that is, where the media and public can view the proceedings), both here in Europe and overseas. If it could be done in the past it can be done again.

No, I'm not ignoring it. There's a big difference between your average inmate at Guantanomo and one on trial in Europe. The former is likely to have been picked up "in the field" while fighting US soldiers, outside of the jurisdiction in which he would be tried; the latter is usually arrested in the same country, often caught red-handed involved in domestic terrorism.
For all sorts of obvious reasons, it is much easier to secure a conviction against this latter "European"-type accused terrorist. And that's even before discussing how the American legal system affords greater protection to the accused than do most continental European states.

Generally such trials do far more to discredit the cause of islamic fundamentalism than secretive military tribunals do as quite often the defendants will happily demonstrate how stupid their ideology is.

There is also the risk that the defendant won't say anything extreme, but use their inevitable acquittal as proof of the argument that the US administration is anti-Muslim, vindictive against non-terrorist opponents, etc. That's a pretty simple way for normal trials to discredit the entire US-led War on Terror. Again, I'm not defending this throught-process, just outlining it and hoping that its opponents will realise that their are no easy answers as to how to prosecute terrorist offences. Certainly our own great little nation did away with normal due process in 1939 and still hasn't overturned the Offences Against the State Act despite the fact that the RIRA are hardly in the same category as Al Qaeda.

[michael1965]

Does the fact that Clonan was forbidden to interview any of the inmates or any of the personnel not specifically chosen for him by the authorities not suggest that there was a lot more going on in Gitmo than he was able to see? If you read the article I think it's pretty clear that Clonan is aware that there was much detail hidden from him.

Of course, it would hardly be reasonable to expect completely free access to the prisoners or the personnel given what the purpose of the place is. Nobody's pretending that this place is a holiday camp in the sun. But it's long way from people being treated like animals. In tomorrow's final installment, he talks about what he thinks of the place. Should be interesting.

[Seabird]

michael1965,

I find the actions of Al Qaeda absolutely deplorable. I do not condone nor doubt that they are responsible for the attack in NYC and personally want all involved hunted down to stand trial. However, I do not believe that the ones captured and placed in custody of the federal system should be treated as animals. I do not know who your news source is but here we have seen actually footage of torture and abuse. This is not acceptable. I believe that they should be entitle to due process. If they have no evidence on an individual and offer nothing more than speculations, is it fair to hold them?

Have you ever heard of Lynne Stewart?? Please go to her website and see just how the US manipulates the judicial system here.

http://www.lynnestewart.org/

[michael1965]

michael1965,

I find the actions of Al Qaeda absolutely deplorable. I do not condone nor doubt that they are responsible for the attack in NYC and personally want all involved hunted down to stand trial. However, I do not believe that the ones captured and placed in custody of the federal system should be treated as animals. I do not know who your news source is but here we have seen actually footage of torture and abuse. This is not acceptable. I believe that they should be entitle to due process. If they have no evidence on an individual and offer nothing more than speculations, is it fair to hold them?

Have you ever heard of Lynne Stewart?? Please go to her website and see just how the US manipulates the judicial system here.

http://www.lynnestewart.org/

It was a three part article in the Irish Times written by a former Irish army officer called Tom Clonan. The third part was today.

His conclusion is that the "prisoners appear to be well treated, but their detention remains cruel".

[Simon.D]

..

[Simon.D]

Does the fact that Clonan was forbidden to interview any of the inmates or any of the personnel not specifically chosen for him by the authorities not suggest that there was a lot more going on in Gitmo than he was able to see? If you read the article I think it's pretty clear that Clonan is aware that there was much detail hidden from him.

Of course, it would hardly be reasonable to expect completely free access to the prisoners or the personnel given what the purpose of the place is. Nobody's pretending that this place is a holiday camp in the sun. But it's long way from people being treated like animals. In tomorrow's final installment, he talks about what he thinks of the place. Should be interesting.

Michael,

I was listening to Tom Clonan's interview with Pat Kenny yesterday.. He was saying A couple of the blocks were respectable enough, but this was for the compliant the prisoners only.. In others, I think in blocks 2 & 3, he was saying he caught a glimpse(he was forbidden access) of prisoners fully shackled with heavy chains, and one can only assume this is the case for most of the day, if not all.. Not very humane conditions..

[Seabird]

Michael,

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/pbs-o26.shtml

Some of the documentary’s most chilling moments are its images of the US Naval base at Guantánamo. In Camp Delta, the expression “packaging prisoners” means shackling inmates for 20 hours a day, while hooding and beating them. At a press conference, Rumsfeld is shown describing “sunny” Gitmo as “the least worst” place to hold detainees.

The escalation of torture at Guantánamo, the program asserts, began when General Geoffrey Miller arrived in November 2002 to take charge of its 625 inmates. As soldiers saluted while repeating, dozens of times a day, “honor bound” (to which the appropriate response was “to defend freedom”), Miller brought in behavioral scientists to determine the psychological vulnerabilities of the detainees. In December 2002, Rumsfeld personally approved a variety of torture techniques. The camera closes in on a memo in which he has written: “I stand for 8-10 hours a day. Why is standing [by prisoners] limited to four hours?”

Here is an article that in my opinion fully desribes the abuse these prisoners endure.

[The OD]

Seabird,

I hope that someone, somewhere is taking detailed accounts of all this for posterity.

I can imagine the chapter in the History books:

Early 21st Century America (United States) - By ******** (C) 2127 A.D.

Close to the turn of the century, the bumbling, ineffective Presidency of George W Bush was given a massive boost by the events which allowed him to instigate his 'War on Terror'. Like the 'War on Drugs', this was a phony war during which such concepts as decency, fairness and justice were laid aside in the pursuit of 'Freedom' - an idea, which in hindsight is most extraordinary idea, akin to beating a child to protest against child abuse.

Bush took the tragedy of September 11th, one of the most appalling and inhuman terrorist acts that the western world (note privileged, white dominated, money orientated, brutal, Darwinian social setup which finally fell in 2052 after the Disaterous and abortive EU v US 9 day war) had to that point ever experienced and used it to implement a swathe of social and legal measures which whilst professing to be used to protect freedom by impairing it. His casual use of uninspired Jingoism and downright theaterical statements alientated the United States from the majority of the rest of the world for a time, but the damage was successfully healed, when in 2012, after a disasterous 4 year Stint, Hilary Clinton, Bill Clinton and George Bush were all finally charged and found Guilty of Multiple acts of gross negligence, perversion of justice and corruption. The new president Ralph Nader immediately released the prisoners from Guantanamo bay and instigated new charges against the 3 Ex Presidents which resulted in Bush hanging himself in the basement of his Crawford ranch, Hilary overdosing on sleeping pills and Bill getting off scott free due to his expert political wranglings.

The most chilling aspect of this era was not only the abandonment of the socio - political influences of Christianity through new testament teaching to be replaced by the insane (and now banned worldwide) and vicious cult of 'evangelical christianity', a cult which has little basis on true christianity.
The use of torture was widespread amongst the oddly named 'Coalition of the Willing' - a misnomer that became one of the first transglobal jokes as one by one the premiers of the nations allied to Bush and his NeoCon ideology fell to charges of misleading their houses of parliament/cabinets/peoples. The victims of torture had their day in Court in the newly rebuilt and rededicated Nurembourg Centre for International whereby disgusting and degrading tales of physical, mental and spiritual torment where repeated over and over. Unfortunately, with Bush dead, Rumsfeld dead, Cheney dead only Gonzalez, Wolfowitz and Rice remained of the inner circle of the old 'NeoCon guard to answer charges. All bar Gonzalez were acquitted whilst Gonzalez got 25 years - he too commited suicide within one week of the sentencing. One of the Guantanamo survivors, a self admitted member of the Taliban, publicly denounced violence, went to Mecca where for 7 years he lived outside the main compound on scraps and the goodwill of plgrims. He would talk with any who would listen about the need for reform in Islam and how Allah himself had talked to him whilst he was tortured. Although initially denounced as insane, a little known aspect of Islam outside of the Muslim world was the leniency that is supposed to be paid to the mentally ill. After he was finally assassinated by the Saud family, he achieved amongst many in the Muslim world, the figure of a modern day martyr which led to events which reformed Islam in a way that many though was impossible.