$4.5 Billion Aid Package Agreed For Georgia

[A_man_about_a_dog]

A conference headed by the World Bank and the European Commission has raised over $4.5 Billion in aid which will be used to rebuild Georgia. Initially the money will be used to rebuild the homes of over 65,000 refugees who were forced to flee during the conflict with Russia.

The conference comprised of over 70 international organisations and states, with Moscow not being invited to attend the conference.

The US has pledged $1 billion and the EC has pledged $700 million. EC President Jose Manuel Barrosso welcomed the result of the conference and stressed the need for those in the "European neighbourhood" to help each other in times of need. EU External Relations Commissioner Benito Ferrero-Walder said the amount raised was far more than had been expected and said "Therefore I think it is a day of joy".

The BBC Story

Good to see that a proper donation package has been arranged to help those who need it most. Also glad to see that the Russians weren't invited to conference given that it was their lack of regard for Georgia's territorial sovereignty which caused this mess in the first place.

[Big Bobo]

When you attack a country about a thousands times your size it generally doesn't go down well.

[A_man_about_a_dog]

When you attack a country about a thousands times your size it generally doesn't go down well.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are regions within the sovereign territorial entity known as Georgia. It was a purely domestic matter until Putin decided he'd get his puppet administration to stick their nose in where it didn't belong.

Russia was clearly the party most at fault in this whole episode.

[Big Bobo]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are regions within the sovereign territorial entity known as Georgia. It was a purely domestic matter until Putin decided he'd get his puppet administration to stick their nose in where it didn't belong.

Russia was clearly the party most at fault in this whole episode.

Do you also condemn Nato bombing Belgrade in 1999? Was Kosovo not a "domestic" issue in the soverign territory of Yugoslavia?

[cHeal]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia are regions within the sovereign territorial entity known as Georgia. It was a purely domestic matter until Putin decided he'd get his puppet administration to stick their nose in where it didn't belong.

Russia was clearly the party most at fault in this whole episode.

NO IT WASN'T A DOMESTIC MATTER!!!!


South Ossetia was under dispute and Russia had UN mandated peacekeepers in the region. Whatever your opinion of Russia's actions, it was not a domestic matter.

[CookieMonster]

Good to see that a proper donation package has been arranged to help those who need it most. Also glad to see that the Russians weren't invited to conference given that it was their lack of regard for Georgia's territorial sovereignty which caused this mess in the first place.

Indeed, and quickly too. Hoepfully it will be enough to get them back on their feet.

[A_man_about_a_dog]

Do you also condemn Nato bombing Belgrade in 1999? Was Kosovo not a "domestic" issue in the soverign territory of Yugoslavia?

The ethnic cleansing which was going on in Yugoslavia is a completely different kettle of fish to the Georgian case. The Georgians were trying to maintain order in a region which was effectively a mobilised separatist region. If the Georgians had allowed the South Ossetians to do whatever the hell the liked (ie: declare themselves fully independent) then it would have led to a flood of similar declarations all over the region, not just in Georgia.

cHeal, I'm not saying that there were absolutely no transnational factors, but it was a domestic matter until the Russians showed a complete lack of regard for Georgia's territorial sovereignty and proceeded to effectively invade and occupy large areas of the country.

The initial dispute was one between the Georgian authorities and their citizens in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Whether those citizens desired to be citizens of another state or not, that is irrelevant. They were Georgian citizens, living on Georgian territory. Moscow sensed the disquiet among these sections of the Georgian population and seized upon them. Like I said, the problems were domestic until Russia got involved, with both covert efforts to stir up nationalist mobilization, and with it's military intervention. Russia showed a complete lack of regard for the established norm of territorial sovereignty, but what else should one expect from a regime headed by a bunch of ex-KGB nuts.

[Big Bobo]

The ethnic cleansing which was going on in Yugoslavia is a completely different kettle of fish to the Georgian case. The Georgians were trying to maintain order in a region which was effectively a mobilised separatist region. If the Georgians had allowed the South Ossetians to do whatever the hell the liked (ie: declare themselves fully independent) then it would have led to a flood of similar declarations all over the region, not just in Georgia.

cHeal, I'm not saying that there were absolutely no transnational factors, but it was a domestic matter until the Russians showed a complete lack of regard for Georgia's territorial sovereignty and proceeded to effectively invade and occupy large areas of the country.

The initial dispute was one between the Georgian authorities and their citizens in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Whether those citizens desired to be citizens of another state or not, that is irrelevant. They were Georgian citizens, living on Georgian territory. Moscow sensed the disquiet among these sections of the Georgian population and seized upon them. Like I said, the problems were domestic until Russia got involved, with both covert efforts to stir up nationalist mobilization, and with it's military intervention. Russia showed a complete lack of regard for the established norm of territorial sovereignty, but what else should one expect from a regime headed by a bunch of ex-KGB nuts.

Now you see you are making a huge mistake here. Firstly the US didn't give a damn about 4000 dead muslims in Kosovo. Just like Russia didn't give a damn about some dead people in South Ossetia, in fact no government really did including the Georgian one. Both incidents were just experiments. Following the collapse of the USSR, the US was left as the only superpower in the world. They now wanted to test what they could get away with and expand NATO east. Yugoslavia was the prefect chance to send out a message to the world that they would bomb whoever they wanted when they wanted. Serbia has always been a traditional ally of Russia so it was a bit of a gamble in some ways but then again Russia was in decline. Of course some dead people in Kosovo were a perfect pretext to go and bomb radio stations and bridges in Belgrade. It was humiliating for the Kremlin to see the US dog digging in their back yard and they could do nothing. If Kosovo had been in Africa the US wouldn't have give a sh1t.

Now after the drunk Boris Yeltsin left office, hardliners and nationalists occupied the Kremlin desperate to secure Russia's place as a global force. They began controling oil and gas exports, funding military technology, doing deals with foes of the US etc. Finally Russia was in a position to prove to the world how strong they had become and wanted to show off their new weapons and hopefully scare the US away from the Caspian and Ukraine. The US on the other hand was arming the Georgians to the teeth and sending military advisors there. Georgia was essential for contolling the Caspian pipeline to Turkey and the transportation of 20 barrels of oil. In some ways it was becoming a puppet state of Washington.

Following an incident of Georgian aggression the Russians then responded completely disportionatly (afterall it was a show of strenght) and their new attack helicoptors and tanks routed the Georgians in 48 hours. It was a huge victory for Russia. Manners had been put on Georgia and a powerful message sent to Washington about how their and NATO's advancement east would be met with force in future.

But then again it is easier to live in your world where these superpowers and crooks in governments care about peoples lives. I bet you think Israel's attack on Lebannon in 2006 was about some kidknapped soldier?

[cHeal]

cHeal, I'm not saying that there were absolutely no transnational factors, but it was a domestic matter until the Russians showed a complete lack of regard for Georgia's territorial sovereignty and proceeded to effectively invade and occupy large areas of the country.

You said it was a "purely" domestic matter. It was not. You're talking ********************. If Britain had started bombing the Bogside residents during the civil rights marches, would that have been a purely domestic matter? Of course not because Ireland has an interest in the area and so it was a bi-national matter, handled bi-nationally (internationally even). The Brits respected that we had an interest in the events in the north.

In this case we have Georgian citizens living in a disputed territorial region who wanted to either be independent or Russian, not to mention that the lives of Russian peacekeepers was put at risk by Georgian military action. That is not a domestic matter by any stretch of the imagination.

I doubt it would matter how I describe this event, you have set out your stall, but I doubt you have or would object to the US doing the very same elsewhere, something it has done on many occasions, both in Latin America and in Georgia and the Ukraine (political interference those cases). Was the US justified in its invasion of Panama? Sponsorship of Contras in Nicaragua? Attempted coup in Venezuela? Invasion of Iraq? Invasion of Afghanistan? War in Vietnam? The Bay of Pigs? Intervention in Kosovo? Coup in Iran? Coup in Chile? Interference in Guatemala?

I condemn Russia's actions, and especially their movement into Georgia, but that is war, and it was Georgia which shot first, a move which was highly irresponsible and dangerous, the consequences of which will by borne out by it's citizens.

[A_man_about_a_dog]

I doubt it would matter how I describe this event, you have set out your stall, but I doubt you have or would object to the US doing the very same elsewhere, something it has done on many occasions, both in Latin America and in Georgia and the Ukraine (political interference those cases). Was the US justified in its invasion of Panama? Sponsorship of Contras in Nicaragua? Attempted coup in Venezuela? Invasion of Iraq? Invasion of Afghanistan? War in Vietnam? The Bay of Pigs? Intervention in Kosovo? Coup in Iran? Coup in Chile? Interference in Guatemala?

I condemn Russia's actions, and especially their movement into Georgia, but that is war, and it was Georgia which shot first, a move which was highly irresponsible and dangerous, the consequences of which will by borne out by it's citizens.

I wouldn't object to the US either explicitly or implicitly attempting to undermine the sovereignty of another state?
Clearly you've never been involved in many of the discussions which I've had on that very topic.

No the US was not justified in any of the 'operations' which you've mentioned. Not one of them.

And for your information, I would oppose any state acting in a manner which threatens the sovereignty of another state. The only exceptions I would have to this would be in cases where severe humanitarian crises were the cause of action... famines, genocides, etc. Other than that, and in particular where there is a regime with a democratic mandate, I would be opposed to such action.


Big Bobo: Yes, Russia was looking for an excuse to flex it's military power and found an easy target in Georgia. Yes, they managed to send a message to NATO. I accept these points. However, my initial point was that this entire escapade involving the two separatist regions was purely a domestic matter until the Russians seized upon the anti-Georgian sentiment in the regions and began supporting their claims for self-determination. Until the Russians began explicitly supporting the separatists in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the issue was a domestic one. By supporting the nationalist claims of Ossetians, etc., the Russian administration was involved in an act which directly threatened the territorial sovereignty, and the integrity, of the Georgian state.

Yes, when the bullets started flying the issue had become international in nature. But originally (ie: before the Russians threw their tupence worth into the mix) the issue was a domestic one.