Aid workers killed in Afghanistan.

[Dr Qasim Afridi]

What's your point exactly?

The point perhaps is that quoting Zahir Shah as someone who was the "last" of love king of Afghanistan is ludicrous...

Afghans were the same... before, during and after Zahir Shah... The likes of him were the same as the likes of Karzai of today...

Why would it have been silly?.. please expand... It was somewhat common place once upon a time..

It would be silly because its no longer once upon a time anymore... Talk in the here and now... Not 4 decades ago...

You seem to be saying that you can just discount the turbulent effects the last thirty years had on that country, forget it ever happened, and say all the violence going on there today is solely down to NATO... The Taleban, Warlords, Russians etc have nothing to do with it.. that decades of war and intermittent lawlessness hasn't had any effect on the population of a country, and Afghan society has held together seamlessly through such horrors...

If I gave that impression it was not intended... YOu are right... Afghanistan has suffered terribly... But I would like to point out to you that NATO is NOT helping in anyway... rather it is creating more problems not only for Afghanistan but also for neighbouring Pakistan... again talk about the here and now... NATO is one of the problem... not the solution

Who did you pay to get that "Dr" before your name...

You dont need to be silly... You can write sensibly and engage in intelligent discussion which anyone can see that you are quite capable of... If it helps you should know that politics is a hobby of mine and I m very good at my professional work too!!!

[Simon.D]

The point perhaps is that quoting Zahir Shah as someone who was the "last" of love king of Afghanistan is ludicrous...

I don't know what you're trying to say in that sentence, but my only reference to Zahir Shah was with respect to the fact that Afghanistan was quite stable up until the end of his reign... Since his fall from power the country has been in a perpetual state of war..

It would be silly because its no longer once upon a time anymore... Talk in the here and now... Not 4 decades ago...

Did you not say "Afghans were the same... before, during and after Zahir Shah", if Afghans are the same now as they were back in the 60's then why would it be silly for a female to wear western clothing in the country nowadays? Please expand...

If I gave that impression it was not intended... YOu are right... Afghanistan has suffered terribly... But I would like to point out to you that NATO is NOT helping in anyway... rather it is creating more problems not only for Afghanistan but also for neighbouring Pakistan... again talk about the here and now... NATO is one of the problem... not the solution

Do you think they were better off under the Taleban? Were the Hazarans in good hands with the Taleban in power? I'm personally no fan of the US, quite the opposite.. But the Taleban maintained a pretty horrific regime in that country, and with them ousted there is a least some hope for the average Afghan regaining some semblance of a future.. Yes NATO's presence in the region is a problem, but if they were to up and leave, who would fill the vacuum?

You dont need to be silly... You can write sensibly and engage in intelligent discussion which anyone can see that you are quite capable of... If it helps you should know that politics is a hobby of mine and I m very good at my professional work too!!!

I'm sure you are, and I apologise.. Heat of the moment and all that...

[Dr Qasim Afridi]

Did you not say "Afghans were the same... before, during and after Zahir Shah", if Afghans are the same now as they were back in the 60's then why would it be silly for a female to wear western clothing in the country nowadays? Please expand...

Hi Simon... Right, this does need explanation... Zahir Shah was the son of the traitor Nadir Shah (who was assassinated by a teenager btw)... for about 30 out of 40 years of Zahir's rule, his uncles were effectively running the country and he started ruling in 1963... He was a pro western monarch and in his time Kabul gave an appearance of a European city rather than the city that we see today... He was ousted in 1973 and remained in exile in Iraly during the time of rule of Communists...

In all this time the Afghans have been a tribal people minding their own business in villages spread across a vast land... Apart from Kabul the people in the villages never adopted the western culture in matters of dress or learning foreign languages...

Then came the communists with their puppets as local government (the last of them Najeeb was hanged by the Taliban)... The communists were brutal in their occupation of Afghanistan... they attacked the villages by aircraft, tanks and artillery... The reason perhaps being that most of the population of Afghanistan had little interest in the communist ideology and were strictly Muslim according to their creed...

The Americans grabbed their long term friend Pakistan and armed the local population of Afghanistan against the Soviets... These became the Mujahideen... One of the main allies in this whole affair was Saudi Arabia... Shah Fahd went around the world championing the cause of America... himself being a ruthless capitalist with little interest in Islam... he bolstered his image by using shallow titles as Khadim Harmain etc... Some rich and young Saudis joined the cause (this included Bin Laden)... The stage was set... Commies were Godless bastards who had attacked Muslims... Jihad was declared against the Soviets in Afghanistan... and to further their own agenda America trained and armed the local population of Afghanistan to fight against the Soviets... the CIA was directly involved and so was Pakistan... Whatever the Bear threw at the Afghans the Americans would counter that with a weapon of their own design... The Russian gunships fell like moths to hand carried SAMs called Stinger Missiles... USSR took a brutal beating at the hands of the Mujahideen...

Once the Soviet economy collapsed after their cleaning act of the Chernobyl disaster which cost them 18 billion Roubles (a rouble was equal to a dollar those days if I remember correctly)... having been humiliated in Afghanistan... the Soviets left... and Afghanistan went thru a phase of civil war between various warlords... Pakistan intervened using Taliban and the rest is before our eyes...

This long explanation is important for the reason that the social dynamics have completely changed in Afghanistan now... We are not talking about a country in the 70s... rather a country where most of its educated (pro western) class has long left the country and the people had seen the liberation of their land against a foreign occupation i.e Soviets thru the strength of their Islamic belief... in this context if you apply the idea that it is now silly for a woman to walk around in a skirt in Afghanistan which has just a decade ago been under the rule of the Taliban (who are still mostly alive and well and all over the place)...

I hope that it makes sense to you now... this is why its silly and infact dangerous to defy the social norm... and majority of Afghans are the same... does nt matter if they support the Taliban or not... The class of Afghanis that wanted to emulate the west in all respects is a thing of the past... HOwever the local population is now seeing that under the new government the west is trying to bring back that kind of cultural invasion... and guess what... its bound to fail... badly!!!

I don't know what you're trying to say in that sentence, but my only reference to Zahir Shah was with respect to the fact that Afghanistan was quite stable up until the end of his reign... Since his fall from power the country has been in a perpetual state of war..

Afghanis are more than capable of bringing peace to their war torn country... If you take that point alone the Taliban had pretty much destroyed all opposition and apart from the Northern Alliance in the North no one had the guts to challenge them... Afghanistan had no warfare in the time of the Taliban... Just plain oppression... (which was no good but then we need to ask the Americans and Pakistanis who were supporting them)

Do you think they were better off under the Taleban?

No they were not and I am not saying they were... What I am saying is that they are no better under NATO...

and with them ousted there is a least some hope for the average Afghan regaining some semblance of a future.. Yes NATO's presence in the region is a problem, but if they were to up and leave, who would fill the vacuum?

You are asking two questions here... No there is no hope for the average Afghan (as you can obviously see that there is so much turmoil there)... If you read my previous posts about Afghanistan under the topic the "grey lady of begram" it might become more clear... The flag of NATO (like the soviet flag before it) shall not be accepted in Afghanistan because it does not belong there...

Finally you pose a serious question... Who fills the vacuum? Well the Afghanis of course... They have been able to form jirgas in the past and come to decisions how best to govern themselves... It becomes a problem when America starts paying dollars to warlords and groups pit against each other trying to gain dominence... that kind of approach destroys any hope of stability... The civil war after the Soviets left was actually because of this reason!!!

So if you want good for Afghanistan... then ask for their true independence!!! That however is hypothetical like the question of leadership vacuum itself...

Cheers

[oceanclub]

No they were not and I am not saying they were... What I am saying is that they are no better under NATO...

So I guess you are claiming that life is equally as bad now as in 2001? Do you include women and girls in this?

P.

[stewiegriffin]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39777&p=1312147#p1312147

[Dr Qasim Afridi]

So I guess you are claiming that life is equally as bad now as in 2001? Do you include women and girls in this?

Ocean... I m claiming that life is BAD if you dont know when you could be hit "by accident" by either NATO troops or the Taliban by being in the crossfire... I m also claiming that the rising drug addiction amongst the Afghans is BAD...

and the following has some shock potential... Please read this link carefully...

http://www.daily.pk/politics/politicaln ... plier.html

Let us all say NO to NATO guns in Afghanistan...

[mountainyman]

Afghanis are more than capable of bringing peace to their war torn country

So if you want good for Afghanistan... then ask for their true independence!!!

POST DELETED

[Sligoboy]

Afghanis are more than capable of bringing peace to their war torn country

So if you want good for Afghanistan... then ask for their true independence!!!

Afghans are no more capable of peace than a tiger is capable of vegetarianism. The men are Padeophile warmongers and always have been.

OMG

[mountainyman]

Sorry if that doesn't suit your hypercapitalist view of the world Sligoboy. The truth is that human beings are not solely economic animals and markets can't fix everything.

[Dr Qasim Afridi]

Afghans are no more capable of peace than a tiger is capable of vegetarianism. The men are Padeophile warmongers and always have been.

OMG