Chinese build "secret" nuclear submarine base

[dsmythy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rine-base.html

Secret in inverted commas for reason of it seemingly being not so secret to prying eyes.

While the U.S. weakens itself fighting wars over the world, are the Chinese actively taking advantage to lessen the military gap between the two countries, while at the same time changing the power base in Asia towards themselves? Is the secretive nature of this base something to worry about or would it be hypocrisy on the American's part to raise an eyebrow about it while most likely having many unannounced miltary projects of their own?

Overall are the Chinese and Americans doomed to clash in future proxy wars across Africa and Asia or can they reconcile any differences they may have?

[Sidewinder]

Major world power builds military base shocker

The Americans have lost the plot in the last decade altogether. And they are rapidly losing their technological edge, in both the military and civilian spheres. They're just throwing the rattle out of the pram because they aren't No. 1 anymore, and their fragile egos can't take the idea of actually having rivals.

This is probably related to that incident last year, when half the US navy was on exercise off Taiwan, and the Chinese repeatedly embarrassed them by having their subs surface right in the middle of the fleet, completely undetected. In a real hot war, the Chinese would have sent an entire Carrier Battle Group to the bottom of the ocean.

[thebrom]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rine-base.html

Secret in inverted commas for reason of it seemingly being not so secret to prying eyes.

While the U.S. weakens itself fighting wars over the world, are the Chinese actively taking advantage to lessen the military gap between the two countries, while at the same time changing the power base in Asia towards themselves? Is the secretive nature of this base something to worry about or would it be hypocrisy on the American's part to raise an eyebrow about it while most likely having many unannounced miltary projects of their own?

Overall are the Chinese and Americans doomed to clash in future proxy wars across Africa and Asia or can they reconcile any differences they may have?

Preparation for any possible Taiwan conflict. Chinese feel threatened by the strong US naval presence in the region. Expect a showdown of epic proportions if Taiwan does anything with regards independence that the Chinese take issue with.

[dsmythy]

I think any showdown would be destined to be solved diplomatically given the old MAD theory. The Americans may have to neglect their promises to further world freedom and concede on Taiwan in such a showdown concentrating their efforts on challenging across the rest of Asia and in Africa. Fighting a naval war off the coast of your enemy is never an easy task also.

The Americans can rely on Japan and South Korea and discount North Korea for support for now but you have to wonder too which side Russia, India, Pakistan and countries with large ethnic Chinese communities would fall on if any. Most of these countries too might be governed by MAD policys given nearly all of them are nuclear capable. You would be opening up a lot of wounds across Asia in the event of widespread tensions. Then there's inside China itself. Could it fall to another revolution less communisitic and more nationalistic or would it tear itself apart?

Sometimes you wonder if the world is a safer place with just one superpower taking away the global competition that more than one seems to always cause.

I agree with sidewinder, with the Chinese education system improving all the time you have to imagine mind wise with this generation and the next that it won't take China long to match the Americans for technological developement. The Americans can push their technological spending and research further or deliver a blow to the Chinese while they still can. They seem to have no choice but to try the former if you ask me.

[thebrom]

I think any showdown would be destined to be solved diplomatically given the old MAD theory. The Americans may have to neglect their promises to further world freedom and concede on Taiwan in such a showdown concentrating their efforts on challenging across the rest of Asia and in Africa. Fighting a naval war off the coast of your enemy is never an easy task also.

The Americans can rely on Japan and South Korea and discount North Korea for support for now but you have to wonder too which side Russia, India, Pakistan and countries with large ethnic Chinese communities would fall on if any. Most of these countries too might be governed by MAD policys given nearly all of them are nuclear capable. You would be opening up a lot of wounds across Asia in the event of widespread tensions. Then there's inside China itself. Could it fall to another revolution less communisitic and more nationalistic or would it tear itself apart?

Sometimes you wonder if the world is a safer place with just one superpower taking away the global competition that more than one seems to always cause.

I agree with sidewinder, with the Chinese education system improving all the time you have to imagine mind wise with this generation and the next that it won't take China long to match the Americans for technological developement. The Americans can push their technological spending and research further or deliver a blow to the Chinese while they still can. They seem to have no choice but to try the former if you ask me.

Two points to make:
1) No way either side would use nuclear weapons. Any showdown would be conventionally based warfare. Chinese don't care that much about Taiwan either.
2) China is an export economy. Their biggest customer is the US. The US will not be handing over their market lead in value added products any time soon.

[dsmythy]

I think any showdown would be destined to be solved diplomatically given the old MAD theory. The Americans may have to neglect their promises to further world freedom and concede on Taiwan in such a showdown concentrating their efforts on challenging across the rest of Asia and in Africa. Fighting a naval war off the coast of your enemy is never an easy task also.

The Americans can rely on Japan and South Korea and discount North Korea for support for now but you have to wonder too which side Russia, India, Pakistan and countries with large ethnic Chinese communities would fall on if any. Most of these countries too might be governed by MAD policys given nearly all of them are nuclear capable. You would be opening up a lot of wounds across Asia in the event of widespread tensions. Then there's inside China itself. Could it fall to another revolution less communisitic and more nationalistic or would it tear itself apart?

Sometimes you wonder if the world is a safer place with just one superpower taking away the global competition that more than one seems to always cause.

I agree with sidewinder, with the Chinese education system improving all the time you have to imagine mind wise with this generation and the next that it won't take China long to match the Americans for technological developement. The Americans can push their technological spending and research further or deliver a blow to the Chinese while they still can. They seem to have no choice but to try the former if you ask me.

Two points to make:
1) No way either side would use nuclear weapons. Any showdown would be conventionally based warfare. Chinese don't care that much about Taiwan either.
2) China is an export economy. Their biggest customer is the US. The US will not be handing over their market lead in value added products any time soon.

Fair points. I'm not sure what the story is with India but i would imagine the trade between China and India will rise to levels comparable with the trade with the U.S. in the future if both their economies continue to thrive.

Nobody would use nuclear weapons but the fact they both have them can stop them coming to blows. It depends on the type of war fought. If the goal was the destruction of one or the others navy then they may fall to a purely conventional naval and intercontinental ballistic war. But the fear of escalation from this may in fact prevent it from happening in the first place. Right now the U.S. has the naval superiority but as shown from this new base the Chinese are attempting to equal American naval power and render the power balance near 50-50. I'm not sure the Americans will accept not being the biggest navy in the world.

[Sligoboy]

Nobody would use nuclear weapons but the fact they both have them can stop them coming to blows. It depends on the type of war fought. If the goal was the destruction of one or the others navy then they may fall to a purely conventional naval and intercontinental ballistic war. But the fear of escalation from this may in fact prevent it from happening in the first place. Right now the U.S. has the naval superiority but as shown from this new base the Chinese are attempting to equal American naval power and render the power balance near 50-50. I'm not sure the Americans will accept not being the biggest navy in the world.

Of course Nuclear weapons would be used, it is the next logical step of any war betweens powers of this magnitude. The entire MAD principle depends on both sides being willing and able to use Nuclear weapons to prevent any kind of military interaction (beyond local accidental occurrences) between those powers.

If China and the US came to blows (this of course would be in the aftermath of some catastrophic international incident where either countries interests where chronically damaged and all diplomatic avenues had been exhausted) it would inevitably lead to a nuclear exchange between the two. Neither power would nor could except a conventional military defeat, that would completely negate the need for Nuclear weapons in the first place and would allow either country far greater latitude in employing military options to any crisis that may arise between them.

If this kind of thinking had been applied during the cold war, the USSR and the US would have gone to war in a conventional sense long ago.

That is precisely why nobody will go to war over Tibet. The US does not care enough about Tibet to risk a disastrous war with China.

[Thac0man]

Its all ho-ha. The Chinese are perfectly entitled to build bases, whether they are supposed to be secret or not. In reality they threaten no one.

China is a couple of decades at least off building an efficient army with strong force projection capabilties. Taiwan has nothing to fear because the Red Army lacks the sophisticated command and control structures needed for successful large scale amphibious or air bourne assault. The Taiwan straits are, for the forseeable future, an insurmountable obsticle to the Chinese military with its current or near future capabilities.

[youngdan]

The US is in a very weak in regard to any attempt to defend Taiwan even if it wanted too. Aircraft carriers are nowadays sitting ducks. The sunburn missile flies at 2200 hundred miles to hour compared to an exocet that flies at 650 mph. The kinetic energy alone is enough to sink a ship even without a warhead and unless their is some futuristic weapon unknown to the public there is no defense against it. The blame for this situation rests with Clinton who allowed Loral to transfer technology that was prohibited under federal law. Bill Gertz wrote regularly in The Washington Post on this an explored the Chinese influence on the Clinton Whitehouse in detail in a few books. Shortly after Bush took office the Chinese forced down an American espionage plane and took it apart. This was to test Bush's backbone which of course was like himeself AWOL. After 6 weeks about they sent it back in crates. However the US could do a good number on them if they fried them with an EMP pulse after repudiating the dollar.

[DAOINE]

Most Chinese will tell you that Taiwan is safe as the Chinese Navy is not great but more than that it is not experienced. All the Chinese know that they could not go after the Guo Min Dang into Taiwan because the Communists had no boats and none were sailors.
Talk of using missiles is silly as the Chinese would have to fight a ground war to take Taiwan properly. In order to keep it stable they would also need low casualty levels. Anyway a pro Beijing government is now installed in Taiwan so there will be re-unification in the next 10 years. It will be fun to see how the Communists deal with experienced democrats in Taiwan. Hong Kong was never a democracy so their mettle has never been tested.