UK gets paramilitary police force

[Aindriu]

I can see how the deployment of such forces would be desirable in certain circumstances and possible in certain areas, but I honestly think this is a way of gettting Army personal to do the polices work, hence saving money. There is an element of cross over between the police and military in many areas, but Gorden Brown very should be careful not to blur the line too much.

On a point of correction. MOD police are NOT Army personnel. They are just as much a police force as the City of London police and the Transport police.

Not army personnel but are headed by MoD not Home Office

They are still CIVILIANS not SOLDIERS They come under - and act under CIVIL law not military law.

[Libero]

Ministry of Defence Police officers are the same as all other Police constables in the UK, they just work for the MOD rather than Hampshire or the Met. their powers and responsibilities are almost identical.

Well, one force is under the Ministry of Defence, the others are under the Home Office. That's a bit of a difference in responsibility.

The force is also trained separately from the 'Home Office' forces and tends to have quite different day-to-day tasks for its personnel. All in all, it's difficult to see how the MoD force could have practices and a working culture reasonably similar to the "regular" police. They're certainly not "the same as all other Police constables in the UK" except in some narrow technical respects to do with designation and lawful police powers.

Some commentators are pretty eager to pass these coppers off as being just like the others, even when they're not. Could it be they know that ordinary Britons are OK with paramilitary forces at a military base but not on the streets in London SW1?

I take it you haven't been to London lately (if at all)? Armed Police are EVERYWHERE in London now - especially the West End. Did you know that the British Transport Police also have an armed unit?

I travel to London regularly. I used to live there.

My point was that the MoD police are a different animal to 'Home Office' police forces such as the Metropolitan Police.

The fact that units of the Met are regularly armed does not stop the Met from being a civil non-paramilitary force. Those armed Met officers are still civil and non-paramilitary.

I submit that the MoD police are paramilitary. They are a routinely armed force that is organised by, and accountable to, the Ministry of Defence. Their tasks (until now) were rountinely on, or concerned with, military establishments. Their training and day-to-day tasks are radically different from that experienced by the average officer in a 'Home Office' police force.

You can take the view that the nomenclature is no big deal. A special armed police force doesn't mean a country is any less of a democracy, even if that force is administratively separate from the localised civil police. France has its Gendarmarie, Spain its Guardia Civil, etc. They even have a little club, with an emphasis on the members' "military status": http://www.fiep-asso.org/common/forces/index.htm

Britain is a bit different though. It has a long history of an unarmed, localised constabulary. The Brits have tended to look down their noses at the French, Spanish and Italians, and seen British policing as a bulwark against politicised state aggression, even if they go a bit OTT about it at times (http://englandexpects.blogspot.com/2...-of-these.html)

I think that general sentiment helps explain why ordinary British people don't want the police replaced in routine duties by a paramilitary force, even if that paramilitary force can be dressed up as "police". They would rather the Met kept carrying our armed patrols and searches. It's beyond me why that can't be the case and why the MoD Police have to be expanding "off-base".

[sid]

Ministry of Defence Police officers are the same as all other Police constables in the UK, they just work for the MOD rather than Hampshire or the Met. their powers and responsibilities are almost identical.

Well, one force is under the Ministry of Defence, the others are under the Home Office. That's a bit of a difference in responsibility.

The force is also trained separately from the 'Home Office' forces and tends to have quite different day-to-day tasks for its personnel. All in all, it's difficult to see how the MoD force could have practices and a working culture reasonably similar to the "regular" police. They're certainly not "the same as all other Police constables in the UK" except in some narrow technical respects to do with designation and lawful police powers.

Some commentators are pretty eager to pass these coppers off as being just like the others, even when they're not. Could it be they know that ordinary Britons are OK with paramilitary forces at a military base but not on the streets in London SW1?

sorry mate, they really are 'ordinary coppers', their day-to-day activties really do mirror those of their civplod colleagues. they arrest people, both civil and military, for exactly the same offences - theft, speeding, Drink-Driving, domestic violence, fraud, dangerous dogs and every other offence - and under exactly the same legislation as any other copper - and they also arrest Service personnel under Service legislation. their relationship to the the MOD vs the county constabularies relationship to the Home Office is perhaps closer, but there is a similar ethos of the MODPOL Chief Constable to that of the Chief Constables of the County Constabularies in that it is similary difficult for a minister to order the MODPOL to undertake a partcular operation in a partcular way as it is for the HS to order a CC from the civil police to do the same.

bottom line: they are trained to the same policing standards as - though their firearms training and day-to-day weapons handling standards are far higher than - CIVPOL, they are accountable to the law in exactly the same way as PC Blogs from Wiltshire Constabulary, and they operate exactly the same legislation (to you, as a civilian) as the Met officer 50 yards down the road.

no change, no police state - in ths respect at least.

[zakalwe]

The UK now has a parallel police force controlled by the Ministry of Defence:

Armed street patrols, who are not required to identify themselves as MoD officers, are questioning people queuing for boat trips on the Thames or having their photograph taken in front of Big Ben.

Officers - who are routinely armed with sub-machine guns - say they are targeting those who match "certain profiles or behaviours" to deter terrorist attacks. Their normal role is to guard military installations and to investigate crimes on the 'defence estate'. But the 3,500 officers are now able to carry out street searches after they were given extra powers under anti-terror laws. They are also regularly being called in to provide backup for regular police officers.

Operations were said to include "high-profile foot patrols in crowded places near sensitive or iconic sites" and "plain-clothes spotters sometimes deployed to direct the uniformed patrols and increase their effectiveness".

Writing in a small-circulation Whitehall journal Public Service Review this month, Insp Taylor described a patrol outside the Houses of Parliament. He said: "During the morning, several persons were stopped and searched under the Terrorism Act . . . Although there is no requirement for police to have suspicion [under the Act], the persons are usually stopped because certain profiles or behaviours have caused the officers to notice them." The Mail on Sunday can reveal that on average last year the MoD officers exercised their powers about 20 times a day.

When did Britain abandon its tradition of unarmed policing?

northern ireland? off the top of my head of course...

[Aindriu]

Libero, you are wrong. The MOD police are NOT routinely armed. They have a section of armed officers the same as every county force in the UK. The vast majority of their number is unarmed the same as county plod.

[sid]

Libero, you are wrong. The MOD police are NOT routinely armed. They have a section of armed officers the same as every county force in the UK. The vast majority of their number is unarmed the same as county plod.

sorry, that is incorrect. approxmately 70% of the MODPOL are undertaking armed duties at any one time.

thats not to suggest that those 70% would be undertaking similar duties to armed CIVPOL, just that, very roughly, if they are in uniform (which by and large means visibly protecting high value targets - mostly from unwashed lesbians - but potentally from an Al-Qa'ida) then they are armed. apart from the role in central london gven to a very few officers outlined in the article, plain clothes MODPOL would be investgating crimes similar to those investigated by any local CID - and therefore not need to be armed.