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  1. #1
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Gaddafi on the issue of Israeli settlements. Any lessons to be taken?

    I was just casting my eye over this thread, and thought I might as well post the following.

    Gadaffi speaks frankly to the other Arab countries:




    So, where do Gadaffi's words suggest the resolution of this conflict must therefore lie?

    Clearly, his intent is that Israel should be wiped off the map, and a new Arab state take its place.

    The alternative, more moderate view is that the parts of the West bank with high concentration of Arabs be handed back again to Jordan, if those Arabs living there will agree to that. With other land swaps.

    And a line is drawn that encompasses the major Israeli settlements, and allows Israel "defensible borders" so that she can properly defend herself. (Let's not kid ourselves, Jews are being killed simply for being Jews, and that is getting worse in the last few years, goaded on by many idiots in Ireland I might add...)

    Arabs living in this new area of Israel would automatically get full residency, and full citizenship would be granted case by case, dependent on whether they had previous terrorist or other violence against the Jewish state on their record.

    Or perhaps people think that the Jews should be put under Muslim rule in Palestine, under a PLO and Hamas coalition, or some such? - Do let us know if you think it should be so.
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  2. #2
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    And just to try and judge whether the Arabs would accept this or not.

    We should recall that up until around 1964, all the Arab nations that constitute the Palestinian leadership were dead set against the Palestinian Arabs being recogised as having a distinct identity. They all said it infringed on their ideal of Pan-Arab nationalism. (We can discern this history in Gadaffi's speech, of course.)

    It is absolutely clear from the record that in the period of time from the Versailles conference until the partition debate in the UN, Arab spokesmen and the Palestinian leadership insisted that Palestine was Southern Syria and that to confer independence on the region infringed on the Arab nationalist vision.

    And Ahmed Shukeiry, the founder and first head of the PLO among others is on the record even 10 years after that debate insisting in the UN council that "it is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".

    Also some of the leadership of the PLO have put it in the past, "There should be a kind of linkage because Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people".

    And King Hussein of Jordan has said in an interview, "The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan". (It was only in 1988 that the Arab residents of the West Bank were stripped of their Jordanian citizenship by the Jordanian government.)

    And even up to present day, when groups like Hamas are addressing Arab audiences, rather than international audiences, this is what they say. - Hamas leadership addressing the Egyptian people (video)

    I don't doubt it might be complex. For example, Assads's father is on public record in the mid-70s stating to Arafat that, "... You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Do not forget one thing: there is no Palestinian people, no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria! You are an integral part of the Syrian people and Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the real representatives of the Palestinian people.". (But perhaps seeing as the Assads currently have other issues, it might be an opportune time.)

    So sure, we know that in 1964 the PLO decided to adopt a demographic based strategy as a complement to their other activities, revolving around renaming what had been called up to then, "Arab refugees" as "homeless Palestinian people".

    And indeed, no one arguing the case for Jewish rights is denying the Palestinian people the identity they adopted. They have every right to call themselves what they like, and Israel has always recognised their claim to nationhood.

    But we have to ask ourselves the hard question - might we row back to before 1964, towards resolving the conflict? Hand back most of the West bank and undertake other land swaps with other Arab countries with whom it is possible to maintain diplomatic relations with?

    Can we construe from Gadaffi's words, that this would be a more peaceable approach than unconditional withdrawal to the 1967 / 1949 armistice lines?
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  3. #3
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Keep the bigger picture in mind. The killings and conflict go way back. Here is one illustrative view of the bigger picture.


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  4. #4
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    And, perhaps the following quotes shed light on a certain dynamic too often overlooked that goes in parallel with the tragic plight of the Palestinian Arabs:

    Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict | Arab and other Quotations
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  5. #5
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
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    The rise of the BDS movement coupled the declining power of the United States which if looked at carefully is on the verge of inner collapse will open up a whole new scenario in Palestine. The purpose of the settlements is of course to prevent a Palestinian state from ever happening and it is interesting to see roc_ doesn't seem to have a problem with them. There were alternative locations which would have been a lot less problematic for setting up a Jewish state but the Zionists choose Palestine didn't they despite all the consequences that were obvious in doing so?

    The Brother Leader was a brilliant man however he wasn't there taking into account the "Samson doctrine" of Zionism which is basically if it looks like their colonial project is finally done for through Nuclear weaponry they will take the world with them. This always has to be taken on board when discussing the Palestine question.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

    https://thecross-roads.org/race-cult...rmany-and-iran

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/revie...foreign-policy

    https://archive.org/details/Sampson_Option
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  6. #6
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    The rise of the BDS movement coupled the declining power of the United States which if looked at carefully is on the verge of inner collapse will open up a whole new scenario in Palestine...
    Possibly. No doubt BDS seek the end of Israel. In nearly the precise same way as Hamas now does. This is clear from their "three tier" strategy:

    ... "They don't want Israel," Finkelstein declared, "They think they're being very clever. They call it their three tiers... We want the end of the occupation, we want the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever, because they know the result of implementing all three is what? What's the result? You know and I know what's the result: there's no Israel..."

    But yes, if the "law-fare" and information war is won by the OIC and their allies on the Left against Israel, and the US abandons them, and the EU increases its attack even more, and other scenarios - yes, it is true, then all that Israel have left to fall back on is their very last resort to defend themselves. The so called "Samson Option".

    - Hopefully though it will never ever come to that.
    Last edited by roc_; 14th November 2017 at 12:10 PM.
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  7. #7
    Cdebru Cdebru is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    I was just casting my eye over this thread, and thought I might as well post the following.

    Gadaffi speaks frankly to the other Arab countries:




    So, where do Gadaffi's words suggest the resolution of this conflict must therefore lie?

    Clearly, his intent is that Israel should be wiped off the map, and a new Arab state take its place.

    The alternative, more moderate view is that the parts of the West bank with high concentration of Arabs be handed back again to Jordan, if those Arabs living there will agree to that. With other land swaps.

    And a line is drawn that encompasses the major Israeli settlements, and allows Israel "defensible borders" so that she can properly defend herself. (Let's not kid ourselves, Jews are being killed simply for being Jews, and that is getting worse in the last few years, goaded on by many idiots in Ireland I might add...)

    Arabs living in this new area of Israel would automatically get full residency, and full citizenship would be granted case by case, dependent on whether they had previous terrorist or other violence against the Jewish state on their record.

    Or perhaps people think that the Jews should be put under Muslim rule in Palestine, under a PLO and Hamas coalition, or some such? - Do let us know if you think it should be so.

    Clearly he was saying that if the only demand is a return to the 1967 borders then you are defacto accepting the legitimacy of the pre 1967 border as the borders of Israel.

    That if you want to make a state out of the Gaza strip and west bank why didn't Jordan and Egypt do that before 1967.


    I personally don't think a 2 state solution is going to work, the "palestinian" state is unworkable as a state, I think the only real solution is for the Israelis and the Palestinians to agree to share all the land of Palestine, the occupied lands and the current state of Israel as one state which guarantees the rights of all of it's citizens, as equals, with some kind of power sharing arrangement, with the right to return for Palestinian refugees, and to be compensated for the loss of land, homes etc.
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  8. #8
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    ... There were alternative locations which would have been a lot less problematic for setting up a Jewish state but the Zionists choose Palestine didn't they despite all the consequences that were obvious in doing so?...
    That's not wholly true. Palestine was a much different place back then. Many leaders concurred that the Jews should return to Israel. Including the likes of our own Michael Davitt for example (writing in 1903).

    The Ottoman census of 1850 counted 350,000 total in the whole region of Palestine (which included present day Jordan of course up until 1923). And of course, Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people where their identity was shaped, and where a not insignificant Jewish presence remained even through all the centuries of their dispersion. The Jews always prayed and hoped for their return to it.
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  9. #9
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdebru View Post
    ... the right to return for Palestinian refugees, and to be compensated for the loss of land, homes etc...
    There are 10 million or so Palestinian refugees today. And they have been wildly indoctrinated and radicalised. Insight into UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine) activities.




    This goes way back, btw.

    Read this excellent article from 1961 - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...estine/304203/

    Written in 1961: "... The refugees' misery is in the head. They are sick in their minds from a diet of propaganda, official Arab dogma and homemade fantasy, which they have gobbled for nineteen years. Schooled in self-pity, encouraged to believe they are the worlds unique victims of injustice, they have never been allowed to forget the daydream past or to settle for the real future. Since the third Arab-Israel war hardly touched them, they learned nothing from it..."
    Last edited by roc_; 14th November 2017 at 12:31 PM.
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  10. #10
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Also, listen to these recent words of this Palestinian moderate, who is working to try and achieve a realistic peace:

    "... Three years ago, I went to visit the Palestinian village of Qariut, located between Ramalla and Nablus. The Israeli occupation confiscated their land and established a settlement called Eli. When I left the people in Qariut I asked them once specific question: if the Israelis were to evacuate Eli settlements tomorrow, would you agree to give the land and the houses for your brothers, the refugees? And nobody agreed.

    So, if even the Palestinians are not willing to accept this right of return, how can we expect Israelis will do it?..."
    Last edited by roc_; 14th November 2017 at 12:36 PM.
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