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  1. #21
    Jack O Neill Jack O Neill is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Yes, this kind of thing illustrates well my point above about "retributive justice" - - the theory of justice that considers proportionate punishment to be the apt response to "crime."

    In this regard I ask myself have you people seriously considered what would balance the scales of justice adequately with respect to the "crimes" they so easily and nearly always superficially repeat and repeat against them?

    Then I wonder whether the people on here who take up these slogans with such relish are familiar with the speeches in the Reichstag 90 years ago, and the slogans similarly wielded, about the Jews being "international world swindlers", "convicted scoundrels and budding crooks" desiring to create a "safe haven" in Palestine, removed from the intervention of other states, so they could carry on their dastardly deeds with impunity, and who committed "genocide" during the holocaust of Holodomr and so on and so on.

    All building up to an eventual "retributive justice".
    we are all familiar with Nazi speeches from ancient history , we are also all familiar with Israels actions from modern history , it gets harder and harder to see much difference
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  2. #22
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cdebru View Post
    See I think you are expecting the Arab countries and the Palestinians to just forget about everything and say, whatever Israel did in the past is all forgotten about, in the absence of an overall settlement...
    Not at all. - But I am saying that there should be a proper perspective and reflection. - Currently, the Israeli is the eternally evil entity, who bears all responsibility, all blame. - While the Palestinians are entirely blameless, innocent (and the other Arab and Muslim countries barely warrant a mention). But towards any resolution there must be steps taken towards seeing the conflict from the other's perspective. Like say, a perspective as set out here. - But listen carefully on these threads about Israel (to the likes of Ratio Et Fides, or Jack O'Neill, nearly the only other contributors so far on this thread), and you find it is not just the Arabs that refuse to do this. - Ask yourself why is it so. Listen through to their intent. - Is it hatred, or something else?
    Last edited by roc_; 14th November 2017 at 01:41 PM.
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  3. #23
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Yes, this kind of thing illustrates well my point above about "retributive justice" - - the theory of justice that considers proportionate punishment to be the apt response to "crime."

    impunity, and who committed "genocide" during the holocaust of Holodomr and so on and so on.
    .
    roc_ you do realize that I was quoting the Torah there? One of your heroes Rabbi Jonathan Sacks has stated clearly that he believes that any criticism of the Old Testament to deeply anti-Semitic. Also I believed that the Brotherly Leader stated once that the majority of Jews in Palestine are actually the victims of Zionism, and this is most certainly true of the Mizrachi. Also don't tell me you believe all that waffle about "Holodmor", I most certainly don't.

    http://www.garethjones.org/tottlefraud.pdf

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03...-fascist-lies/

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  4. #24
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    ... One of your heroes Rabbi Jonathan Sacks has stated clearly that he believes that any criticism of the Old Testament to deeply anti-Semitic...
    Nonsense. I don't believe that. Show me exactly where, in context. And he is not a "hero of mine". He often intelligently cuts to the underlying truth in a lot in phenomena I myself observe, and I respect his intelligence for that. That is all.

    I would acknowledge he would say that someone snipping parts out of the Torah to justify incitement and hatred against the Jews is an antisemite. I have observed you and your cronies do this.

    So no doubt there are fools like you or Kalipa who descend on the negative and inhumane aspects, and the fanatic and discriminating aspects, of the old testament, a book set in the social realities of 10,000 years ago, and use these aspects to justify yourself.

    But anyone with an ounce of intelligence tries to find what good they can take out of such old writings, to help them lead a better life.
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  5. #25
    Mick Mac Mick Mac is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    roc_ you do realize that I was quoting the Torah there? One of your heroes Rabbi Jonathan Sacks has stated clearly that he believes that any criticism of the Old Testament to deeply anti-Semitic. Also I believed that the Brotherly Leader stated once that the majority of Jews in Palestine are actually the victims of Zionism, and this is most certainly true of the Mizrachi. Also don't tell me you believe all that waffle about "Holodmor", I most certainly don't.

    http://www.garethjones.org/tottlefraud.pdf

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03...-fascist-lies/

    Holodomor was Ukraine
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  6. #26
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    ... Also don't tell me you believe all that waffle about "Holodmor", I most certainly don't...
    The point is that at certain points in times past, such allegations have been popularly believed, and they later came to be wielded in justification of persecutions. There are parallels with what is happening today.
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  7. #27
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Nonsense. Show me where, in context. And he is not a hero of mine. He just cuts to the truth a lot in phenomena I observe.

    I would acknowledge he would say that someone snipping parts out of the Torah to justify incitement and hatred against the Jews is an antisemite.

    No doubt there are fools like you or Kalipa who descend on the negative and inhumane aspects, and the fanatic and discriminating aspects, of the old testament, a book set in the social realities of 10,000 years ago, and use these aspects to justify yourself.

    But anyone with an ounce of intelligence tries to find what good they can take out of such old writings, to help them lead a better life.
    Look at him in the you-tube video I posted where he calls Richard Dawkins anti-Semitic and states clearly that criticism of the Torah is profoundly anti-Semitic. If you watch the whole debate Dawkins originally his usually cocky self before that happened because visibly terrified.

    And honestly roc_ Kalipa is a genteel mainline Anglican from the South and not some fire breathing Loyalist "Pastor" from Ulster.
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  8. #28
    Sync Sync is offline
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    Guys can we all please really really think about the meaning behind the words of the dead despot who was torn apart by his own people?
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  9. #29
    roc_ roc_ is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratio Et Fides View Post
    Look at him in the you-tube video I posted where he calls Richard Dawkins anti-Semitic and states clearly that criticism of the Torah is profoundly anti-Semitic...
    I watched it. I appreciate his point. He did certainly not say "criticism of the Torah is profoundly anti-Semitic". He said he found Dawkin's language and depiction of the God that Jews worship to be antisemitic. He said, put up your hand, to people in the audience who might appreciate what he is saying. If you watch your video through to the end, I would have understood his point and raised my hand. I would also appreciate in that scenario someone who did not deem it to be so. But certainly, I could understand any Jew who found it to be so. And I don't think either that Dawkins intended antisemitism at all. Anyway, you're derailing again, as per usual.

    EDIT - Rabbi Sacks highlights that which has potential to incite violence or prejudice against Jews. The paragraph he read out certainly had that potential, whether Dawkins realised it or not.
    Last edited by roc_; 14th November 2017 at 02:34 PM.
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  10. #30
    Itsalaugh Itsalaugh is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by roc_ View Post
    Not at all. - But I am saying that there should be a proper perspective and reflection. - Currently, the Israeli is the eternally evil entity, who bears all responsibility, all blame. - While the Palestinians are entirely blameless, innocent (and the other Arab and Muslim countries barely warrant a mention). But towards any resolution there must be steps taken towards seeing the conflict from the other's perspective. Like say, a perspective as set out here. - But listen carefully on these threads about Israel (to the likes of Ratio Et Fides, or Jack O'Neill, nearly the only other contributors so far on this thread), and you find it is not just the Arabs that refuse to do this. - Ask yourself why is it so. Listen through to their intent. - Is it hatred, or something else?
    The Germans were to blame. Why not make peace with the Palestinians by scraping the 2 state solution and sharing the land of Abraham. Then target the Germans and demand a. Jewish homeland maybe roughly where Saxony Bavaria Hesse conjoin and take an enclave in Austria or western Ukraine where extreme fascism flourishes to this day and they blame the 'Jewish globalists' for their ineptness.
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