Villiers-le-Bel Paris 27 November 2007

[Catalpa]

It looks like the deaths of two joyriders from France's immigrant community has sparked an even more vicious round of rioting than that experienced in 2005.

Sarkozy must surely be worried that if he backs off the troublemakers will be emboldened to step up their attacks on Police and private property both in Villiers-le-Bel and further afield leading to the possible deaths of police officers.

On the other hand if he goes in heavy then he might in effect trigger a low intensity civil war between the French and the immigrants.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/ ... 09,00.html

IMO he should nip this one in the bud before it spirals out of control...

[popper]

According to one of the people interviewed on the News, the two joyriders were "only enjoying themselves." He went on to predict "war."

Ah, what fun awaits us in years to come.

[The SR]

the cops rammed the two kids, left the scene and others returned to prevent the fire service give them medical help.

if the Gardai behaved like that they would get the same treatment.

[Garda]

the cops rammed the two kids, left the scene and others returned to prevent the fire service give them medical help.

if the Gardai behaved like that they would get the same treatment.

Thats one sided and biased speculation.

It wasnt the police that caused this it was 2 scumbags stealing someones car and driving like lunatics which caused their own deaths instead of an innocent childs for a change.

[The SR]

This

Thats one sided and biased speculation.

is followed by this

It wasnt the police that caused this it was 2 scumbags stealing someones car and driving like lunatics which caused their own deaths instead of an innocent childs for a change.

with no sense of irony at all.

This is the first place I have heard them refered to as 'scumbags' and that they were stealing. No doubt you will back these nasty allegations up with some sort of link.

Like this one that refers to the police ramming the bike and leaving the scene.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/ ... 38,00.html

[Garda]

This is the first place I have heard them refered to as 'scumbags' and that they were stealing. No doubt you will back these nasty allegations up with some sort of link.

Like this one that refers to the police ramming the bike and leaving the scene.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/ ... 38,00.html

Actually it doesnt say anything about the police ramming them and merely states that a "resident claimed" the police left the scene. However using your own link I also found;
"At about 5pm on Sunday, a mini-motorcycle and a police car on patrol collided, killing 15-year-old Moushin and his friend Larami, 16. Police said the teenagers were driving an unregistered vehicle and were not wearing helmets."

And spending 5 minutes online produced these:

1. "Police sources said the two were riding a stolen mini-motorcycle, and that neither was wearing a helmet."
2. "Witnesses have accused the police of leaving the scene and of preventing local people from trying to help the youngsters as they lay in the road. "
3. "The police car was on a routine patrol and the teenagers were not being chased by police at the time of the accident"
4. "Two witnesses said the police car was driving at 40 - 50kph (25 - 30mph) and had no revolving lights or siren on. "
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7112497.stm)

5. "Some witnesses say the motorcycle, carrying two youths who were not wearing helmets, crashed at high speed into the side of a police car during a routine patrol."
(http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1127/france.html)

6. "Police said the teens drove through a red light without wearing helmets and on an unregistered bike."
(http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europ ... index.html)

7. "the two teenagers were driving a stolen motorcycle and that neither of them was wearing a helmet. At the time of the collision with the police car, they were driving at high speed and they failed to cede the right of way to the police cruiser, DPA reports"
(http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Clashes_ ... 11009.html)

8. "three eyewitnesses, interviewed on TV, said the police stayed and tried to revive the two boys with mouth to mouth resuscitationMore "
(http://www.enews20.com/news_Riots_Rock_ ... 04010.html)

So you have residents stating that the police ran away but also stopped others from helping. How can you do both? Your either at the scene or your not. I also doubt 2 lone police officers could stop a large crowd.

I have as you asked produced multiple quotes supporting my claim that they were A, driving a stolen bike. Therefore commiting the crime of stealing. B, Drove in a dangerous manner such as high speed and breaking a red light and C, shown more witnesses stating that the police not only stayed but also tried to revive the teens.

Also I should mention that they were 15 and 16. Too young to have trained, tested and been licensed to ride a motorbike of that type.

The only mention of what caused the crash states that they ran into the police cars side therefore the only 'ramming' was by them.


So yes, I do think they are scumbags. They stole someones property and drove in a manner likely to kill innocent people witho no regard for what they were doing. If they were so flippant with life why should I weep for them? Now do you accept that they were in the wrong based on the current information or are you simple to hell bent on blaming the police?

[popper]

This

Thats one sided and biased speculation.

is followed by this

It wasnt the police that caused this it was 2 scumbags stealing someones car and driving like lunatics which caused their own deaths instead of an innocent childs for a change.

with no sense of irony at all.

This is the first place I have heard them refered to as 'scumbags' and that they were stealing. No doubt you will back these nasty allegations up with some sort of link.

Like this one that refers to the police ramming the bike and leaving the scene.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/ ... 38,00.html

You should recruit them to the Ultras

[Thac0man]

According to one of the people interviewed on the News, the two joyriders were "only enjoying themselves." He went on to predict "war."

Ah, what fun awaits us in years to come.

I saw that on TV too. Worrying that one communities criminal element is deemed more palatable than the forces of the state, no matter what they have done or how they have acted.

If the deaths of each criminal is going to cost a few tens of millions in riot damage, the French should really think about using expensive laser guided bombs to clean them up before this kind of thing has a chance to kick off. Cheaper in the long run.

[Trampas]

According to one of the people interviewed on the News, the two joyriders were "only enjoying themselves." He went on to predict "war."

Ah, what fun awaits us in years to come.

Indeed. And there are still people out there who believe that somehow Ireland still has an "opportunity" to avoid the mistakes of others.
Those two policemen did flee the scene so they may be held to be in breach of French law. Smart move though - they had obviously heard about the fate of the two British corporals up north.

[badinage]

Those two policemen did flee the scene so they may be held to be in breach of French law. Smart move though - they had obviously heard about the fate of the two British corporals up north.

yeah that's a good point.

Why there isn't a very public and heated debate right now on the likely implications of immigration into Ireland from certain countries, I just can't comprehend.

In 40 years time we're going to be hearing that the reason for high unemployment rates, violent crime rates, etc among certain ethnic groups in our society is because they're disadvantated, discriminated against, underfunded, ignored