Originally Posted by olli rehn

Ask that question to the Russian propaganda operators who are dragging one blood soaking body after the other through this forum- day in, day out.
Do you think anybody cares there ? Corpses are used for propaganda purposes.
Caring about people ? You must be joking.

Russians doing it bad, NATO doing it good.

nothing like the good old days of chasing commis around the place.

Originally Posted by olli rehn

Of course they will like it.
It gives them a sort of legal position. They carved out their thiefdom and now the plundering of the area by the usurpators can begin.
You will see corruption all over the place. The boys will come in from the battlefield and queue up for government jobs. In no time they will have amassed a big amount of wealth and a new nomenclatura is in place.That is what it was all about from the first bullet onwards-power grabbing and stealing from the people.
Shocking- one group of exploiters are leaving, another one comes in.
In the end it is the ordinary Joe Soap on the street who is loosing again.

That sounds like whats been happening in Ukraine since the change of regime.

Originally Posted by olli rehn

Ask that question to the Russian propaganda operators who are dragging one blood soaking body after the other through this forum- day in, day out.
Do you think anybody cares there ? Corpses are used for propaganda purposes.
Caring about people ? You must be joking.

I'm asking you. Why do you pretend to care about "the people"? Why do you attempt to use that faux concern to bolster your arguments? Corpses can be used for propaganda, certainly, but they are also a stark reminder of what someone may or may not be supporting. Furthermore, showing the result of the actions of an aggressor is surely better than sweeping it under the carpet? Better for "the people"?

Originally Posted by olli rehn

Ask that question to the Russian propaganda operators who are dragging one blood soaking body after the other through this forum- day in, day out.
Do you think anybody cares there ? Corpses are used for propaganda purposes.
Caring about people ? You must be joking.

You've reminded me of this astonishing article by Robert Goldich:

The problem is, we — that is, the world — pay far too much attention to civilian casualties, both in reporting about war and in thinking about war. Our fixation on civilian deaths and injuries is based on historical misconceptions, moral sloppiness, and an unwillingness to confront some inconvenient truths about the nature of war. There may be occasional practical objections to inflicting civilian casualties, but a blanket assumption that inflicting them is always wrong is highly suspect

And he goes on in a similar vein: Don

Originally Posted by dammit_im_mad

The money was paid to anti russian right wing groups and others agitating against the democratically elected government of Ukraine. And those were not "cookies" Victoria Nuland was distributing in Maidan square. Those Nazi right sector thugs were each paid 50 euro per day to cause mahem.

Have you any credible links (which means no Counterpunch/GlobalResearch) that funds were paid to anti Russian right wing groups? I have many times posted links to many highly laudable schemes improving life for Ukrainians that this American cash was spent on, can you provide similar links to prove your claims? I have never yet seen any.

And likewise any links to the US paying people to cause mayhem? I can give you first hand testimony from protesters that I know who stood out in Independence Square who know of no such payments. Its all Russia Today I heard from someone who heard from someone etc rubbish.

Imagine if a horde of right wing nazi thugs armed with baseball bats were paid by BLAH BLAH BLAH

i have said it over and over and over, if any protest movement in any western country could summon a million protesters on to its capital city with tens of thousands sufficiently committed they were willing to stay there for months in minus 20 temperatures and literally fight to the death to not be moved there is no country in the world that could shift them. Certainly the Gardai would have no chance.

Russia have been financially propping up an ungrateful Ukraine for a long time. They buy all their tractors etc, which would not sell in the EU without expensive retooling to allow them to meet different EU standards. Russia outsourced parts for their weapons to Ukraine, and Ukraine got special rate on their gas, which Russia lost money on (had they sold it at market rate instead). Despite this, Ukraine caused headaches with the gas pipelines at every turn. The Russian offer was far better for Ukraine economically than the endless austerity policies and privatisation offered by the EU (as we have found). That's why Yanukovitch decided to decline the offer.

Yes Russia has continued to buy crap Ukrainian stuff. Which has had the effect of seeing those industries left stagnating with no incentive to invest or innovate to create products that Ukraine can sell to the wider world and create genuine wealth for the country. Most of the stuff they produce is a pile of sh*te. Those are not policies that will provide a secure prosperous future for the country, they are policies to keep Ukraine impoverished dependent on Russian goodwill.

And indeed in any normal functioning country the price paid for gas by consumers is connected to the price charged by the producer. Not so in Ukraine. First off any profit from gas discount is creamed off by epic scale corruption and secondly by the insane policy of Ukraine of subsidizing domestic gas usage. with 7 per cent of the countries GNP going on subsidizing domestic gas with the result that Ukraine is the most wasteful inefficient gas user in Europe. By some margin.

Ukraine needs to get out of Russias sphere, its crap industry need to either come up to scratch through investment or go to the wall and Ukraines gas consumption needs to be slashed which can easily be done through efficiencies we take for granted over here.
Then genuine prosperity will then reach Ukraine and it will no longer be a pauper begging for scraps off Russias table.

The Ukrainian parliament has approved laws on special status for the Donetsk and Lugansk Regions, as well as amnesty for those participating in the hostilities. The special status law has received 277 ‘yes’ votes from a total of 450 MPs, while the amnesty law was approved by 287 parliamentary members. The session of the Verkhovna Rada is underway during which MPs are to ratify an agreement with the EU. The law on the special status of Lugansk and Donetsk Regions guarantees the right to use and study Russian or any other language in Ukraine. It also states that local elections are to take place in the regions on December 7

Originally Posted by Ramon Mercadar

It looks like victory for the rebels but Aleksandr Zakharchenko has struck a cautious note:

Is this not just exactly what Poroshenko had in his election manifesto back in April?
It would be a climb down if he mentioned the term "federalisation" but there is no mention of that f-word. Increased local Controls/ Local elections/ Special status for Russian were all in his election manifesto.

Originally Posted by TheWexfordInn

Is this not just exactly what Poroshenko had in his election manifesto back in April?
It would be a climb down if he mentioned the term "federalisation" but there is no mention of that f-word. Increased local Controls/ Local elections/ Special status for Russian were all in his election manifesto.

So the militants fought for something that Kiev was willing to give them in the first place <slow clap>.

Still waiting for the ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers in Ukraine held Dombass regions <looking patiently at his watch>.

Originally Posted by olli rehn

Ask that question to the Russian propaganda operators who are dragging one blood soaking body after the other through this forum- day in, day out.
Do you think anybody cares there ? Corpses are used for propaganda purposes.
Caring about people ? You must be joking.

If you are unable to empathise with other people then you are likely a psychopath or at best a sociopath.
It would explain a lot. And if so, sadly you are not alone on here either.

Originally Posted by Garza

So the militants fought for something that Kiev was willing to give them in the first place <slow clap>.

.

Do yo know what Poroshenko was going to give eastern Ukraine in reality or you believe what pro-Kiev propaganda says?
Original plan was to take out to Kiev all personal taxes in exchange for leaving all other taxes to local authorities(most of big businesses had their head offices are n Kiev, so eastern Ukraine would only lose) plus give right to elect governors locally but president would have a right to fire any time he wants. I don't see this is what people in Novorossia were dreaming for

Originally Posted by Garza

So the militants fought for something that Kiev was willing to give them in the first place <slow clap>.

Still waiting for the ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers in Ukraine held Dombass regions <looking patiently at his watch>.

It didn't appear Poroshenko was willing to give anything of the sort during his assault on the region. Only now that his forces have been beaten back - temporarily or otherwise - has he decided to talk.

You won't see any ethnic cleansing unless you count the thousands of murdered and displaced and the destruction of civil structures.