2,000 dead in Homs?

[SAT]

A question for Riadach. What will be done to protect the large section of the population who support the current government in the event of him achieving his desired result, with yet another secular country in the ME falling into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists?

Experience in Libya would suggest the answer is sweet FA. Tribes allied to Gadaffi have been tortured / massacred / ethnically cleansed on a massive scale since his beloved Muslim Brotherhood were gifted control of the country by the West with ne'er a whimper of protest from the same politicians who claim to love civilians so much they will kill them to protect them.

[Riadach]

A question for Riadach. What will be done to protect the large section of the population who support the current government in the event of him achieving his desired result, with yet another secular country in the ME falling into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists?

A new government, depending entirely on the good will of the international community, is going to be far more reluctant to engage in the atrocities that Assad has.

Experience in Libya would suggest the answer is sweet FA. Tribes allied to Gadaffi have been tortured / massacred / ethnically cleansed on a massive scale since his beloved Muslim Brotherhood were gifted control of the country by the West with ne'er a whimper of protest from the same politicians who claim to love civilians so much they will kill them to protect them.

There is nothing like an established Muslim Brotherhood in Libya, they are only a tiny part of the TNC. I wouldn't deny there are still crimes persisting in Libya, where I take umbrage is the idea that it was anything like the scale that Gaddaffi engaged in. Despite its flaws, the TNC is making an effort to take control of the various militias who overthrew Gaddaffi, and they do at least claim to uphold the principles of justice and human rights.

[SAT]

A new government, depending entirely on the good will of the international community, is going to be far more reluctant to engage in the atrocities that Assad has.

As has happened in Iraq and Libya you mean!! LMFAO. You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The fact you think there will be a different result in Syria speaks volumes for your state of mind.

There is nothing like an established Muslim Brotherhood in Libya, they are only a tiny part of the TNC. I wouldn't deny there are still crimes persisting in Libya, where I take umbrage is the idea that it was anything like the scale that Gaddaffi engaged in. Despite its flaws, the TNC is making an effort to take control of the various militias who overthrew Gaddaffi, and they do at least claim to uphold the principles of justice and human rights.

Of course they claim to uphold the principles of justice and human rights. They are hardly going to say otherwise

ME experts say human rights abuses are many times worse now under the new regime than it was under Gadaffi. As an example Doctors without Borders have just pulled out because they said they were sick of nursing tortured people back to health only to have to fix them up again a few days later after another torture session.

Libya is now a failed state, and like Iraq will remain so for many years to come. Which is exactly what the US and its goons intended. A failed state is a neutered state.

Human Rights Investigations has been following the situation of the Tawergha closely and here we draw the information together and find, based on the reports of witnesses, journalists and human rights workers, the situation of the Tawergha is not just one of ethnic cleansing but, according to the legal definition, genocide.
HRI has grave concerns, not only for dark-skinned people in Libya generally, but also for pro-Gaddafi tribes including the Gaddafa and al-Meshashyas. We also have particular concern for the Tuareg of southern Libya who are being accused of being ‘mercenaries’ and under attack from NATO and rebel forces. But the greatest concern is perhaps for the Tawergha.

The Genocide Convention

Article 2 of the United Nations issued Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide states:

“any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such:

1. Killing members of the group;

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

Article 4 states:

Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in Article 3 shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.

The Tawargha have been ethnically cleansed

The main town of the Tawergha region, Tawergha itself (aka Tawargha, Tawurgha. Arabic: تاورغاء), was a town of an estimated 31,250 people (United Nations Environment Program, 2005). It has been emptied of its entire population: its people having either been killed or fled, amidst reports the remaining population in the area are being picked off as they try to find water and food. The town of Tawergha lies about 30-40 miles south of Misrata/Misurata, along the western coast of the Gulf of Sirte. Areas of Misrata occupied by the Tawargha have also been ethnically cleansed, according to the Wall Street Journal.

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org...rgha-genocide/ So again I ask where is the NATO and diplomatic support for the civilian population being brutalized by the new regime?? Or even condemnation for that matter!

You are probably well intentioned but like the NGOs whose complaints of human rights abuses are used to justify military intervention, you are falling for the propaganda of the US war machine.

[Riadach]

As has happened in Iraq and Libya you mean!! LMFAO. You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The fact you think there will be a different result in Syria speaks volumes for your state of mind.

I only think there will be a different result in Syria, because the revolt is driven by the populace, and their lives are in immediate danger. This was not the case in Iraq, by any stretch.

Of course they claim to uphold the principles of justice and human rights. They are hardly going to say otherwise

Like Mohammed Jalil former Human rights lawyer and head of the TNC?

ME experts say human rights abuses are many times worse now under the new regime than it was under Gadaffi. As an example Doctors without Borders have just pulled out because they said they were sick of nursing tortured people back to health only to have to fix them up again a few days later after another torture session.

Which ME experts?

Libya is now a failed state, and like Iraq will remain so for many years to come. Which is exactly what the US and its goons intended. A failed state is a neutered state.

Is it indeed? I think you'll find that that's wishful thinking. It's not without problems, the militias are still far too powerful, but civil society is being reconstructed, political movements are flowering, something that could not be done in Iraq because it was top down regime change. In Libya, as would be the case in Syria, they view it as their revolution.

Of course, you'd prefer if the Libyans had stood still so Gaddaffi could shoot them easier.

[Libero]

SAT is a sick puppy.

That is all.

[SAT]

From the NY Times

Islamists’ Growing Sway Raises Questions for Libya
By ROD NORDLAND and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

TRIPOLI, Libya — In the emerging post-Qaddafi Libya, the most influential politician may well be Ali Sallabi, who has no formal title but commands broad respect as an Islamic scholar and populist orator who was instrumental in leading the mass uprising.

The most powerful military leader is now Abdel Hakim Belhaj, the former leader of a hard-line group once believed to be aligned with Al Qaeda.

The growing influence of Islamists in Libya raises hard questions about the ultimate character of the government and society that will rise in place of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s autocracy. The United States and Libya’s new leaders say the Islamists, a well-organized group in a mostly moderate country, are sending signals that they are dedicated to democratic pluralism. They say there is no reason to doubt the Islamists’ sincerity.

But as in Egypt and Tunisia, the latest upheaval of the Arab Spring deposed a dictator who had suppressed hard-core Islamists, and there are some worrisome signs about what kind of government will follow. It is far from clear where Libya will end up on a spectrum of possibilities that range from the Turkish model of democratic pluralism to the muddle of Egypt to, in the worst case, the theocracy of Shiite Iran or Sunni models like the Taliban or even Al Qaeda.

Islamist militias in Libya receive weapons and financing directly from foreign benefactors like Qatar; a Muslim Brotherhood figure, Abel al-Rajazk Abu Hajar, leads the Tripoli Municipal Governing Council, where Islamists are reportedly in the majority; in eastern Libya, there has been no resolution of the assassination in July of the leader of the rebel military, Gen. Abdul Fattah Younes, suspected by some to be the work of Islamists.

Mr. Belhaj has become so much an insider lately that he is seeking to unseat Mahmoud Jibril, the American-trained economist who is the nominal prime minister of the interim government, after Mr. Jibril obliquely criticized the Islamists.

From Amnesty International

Amnesty: Pro-Gaddafi detainees killed and tortured in Libya
26 January 2012

Several detainees have died in Libya after being tortured Amnesty International said today, amind widespread ill-treatment of suspected pro al-Gaddafi fighters and loyalists



Amnesty International delegates in Libya have met detainees being held in and around Tripoli, Misrarah and Gheryan, who showed visible marks indicating torture inflicted in recent days and weeks. Their injuries included open wounds on the head, limbs, back and other parts of the body.



The torture is being carried out by officially recognised military and security units as well by a multitude of armed militias operating outside any legal framework.

And from the current Libyan leader himself

Libyan Leader Says Militia Clashes Could Create Civil War
By J. DAVID GOODMAN

After deadly clashes between rival fighters in Tripoli this week, Libya’s transitional government expressed growing concern that the country could descend into civil war if its militias were not brought under control.

The leader of the Transitional National Council, Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, bluntly warned late Tuesday that the government faced “bitter options” as it struggled to rein in thousands of fighters who joined regional militias during the months of battles against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and have remained in Tripoli, the capital, long after his death. “We deal with these violations strictly and put the Libyans in a military confrontation, which we don’t accept, or we split and there will be a civil war,” Mr. Abdel-Jalil was quoted by Reuters as saying.

And to dispel the myth that things are better than they were before: ironically the UN were scheduled to give Gadaffi a human rights award prior to the rebellion kicking off. Here is the UN report with country after country praising Gadaffi's Libya for its commitment to human rights and its legal and social welfare structures. http://libyanfreepress.files.wordpre...dic_review.pdf
An extract

10. The delegation noted that all rights and freedoms were contained in a coherent, consolidated legal framework. The legal guarantees formed the basis for protection of the basic rights of the people. Further, abuses that might occur were dealt with by the judiciary and the perpetrators were brought before justice. The judiciary safeguarded the rights of individuals and was assisted by other entities, most importantly the Office of the Public Prosecutor. A National Human Rights Commission, with a mandate based on the Paris Principles, had also been established, in 2007. The aforementioned entities were complemented by newly established mechanisms, such as civil society organizations established under Law No. 19 of 2001.

11. Protection of human rights was guaranteed in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya; this included not only political rights, but also economic, social and cultural rights. The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya referred to its pioneering experience in the field of wealth distribution and labour rights.

12. The delegation indicated that women were highly regarded in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, and their rights were guaranteed by all laws and legislation. Discriminatory laws had been revoked. Libyan women occupied prominent positions in the public sector, the judicial system, the public prosecutor’s office, the police and the military. Libyan legislation also guaranteed children their rights, and provided for special care for children with special needs, the elderly and persons with disabilities.

17. Freedom of religion was also guaranteed, in accordance with basic laws and the Green Document, which stipulated that religion was a private spiritual and individual value and constituted a direct relationship with the Creator (God).

33. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea praised the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for its achievements in the protection of human rights, especially in the field of economic and social rights, including income augmentation, social care, a free education system, increased delivery of health-care services, care for people with disabilities, and efforts to empower women. It noted the functioning of the constitutional and legislative framework and national entities. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea made recommendations.

53. On the initiative to distribute wealth to low-income families, those programmes were related to distributing money through investments for every needy family. Over the past four years, 229,595 families had benefited from the programme

54. Regarding services for persons with special needs, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya indicated that such persons received monthly allowances and were exempt from all fees and taxes, including for electricity, water and transportation. They also had residences and housing units, medical supplies, vehicles especially designed for them, and paid domestic help and home services.

63. Australia welcomed the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya’s progress in human rights and its willingness to facilitate visits by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, which demonstrated the country’s commitment to engaging with the international community on human rights. Australia remained concerned over restrictions on freedom of assembly and expression; the detention of political prisoners; limited rights to fair trial under the new State Security court; enforced disappearances; deaths in custody; discrimination towards minorities; lack of legal protections against domestic violence; and the application of the death penalty. Australia made recommendations.

Not quite the Libya portrayed by the US and its useful idiots in the media.

Amongst those who praised Libya's advances in the field of human rights you will see some countries who did a quick about turn when pressured by the global dictator; the US.

Denmark, China, Italy, The Netherlands, Mauritania, Slovenia, Nicaragua, The Russian Federation, Spain, Indonesia, Sweden, Norway, Ecuador, Hungary, South Africa, The Phillippines, Maldives, Chile, Singapore, Germany, Australia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Angola, Nigeria, Congo, Burundi, Zambia, Rwanda, Burkina Faso, Senegal, Cote d’Ivoire, Djibouti.

The main complaint Gadaffi's detractors had, was that under him, they were not being allowed to impose their own brand of brutal Islam on the population. Now thanks to the West they can, and they are.

You seem to have a romanticised view of revolutions, I suggest you take off the rose tinted glasses, and the Che Guevara T-shirt, and see things for how they really are.

[Andy4571]

A question for Riadach. What will be done to protect the large section of the population who support the current government in the event of him achieving his desired result, with yet another secular country in the ME falling into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists?

Experience in Libya would suggest the answer is sweet FA. Tribes allied to Gadaffi have been tortured / massacred / ethnically cleansed on a massive scale since his beloved Muslim Brotherhood were gifted control of the country by the West with ne'er a whimper of protest from the same politicians who claim to love civilians so much they will kill them to protect them.

Question for you SAT. Do you support the protesters in Egypt?. If the military regime currently in place falls, what will be done to protect the large section Orthodox Christians, who have been tageted many times in past by Egyptian Salafists, when Egypt falls to Islamic fundamentalists, which election results have already shown to be the case?

[SAT]

Question for you SAT. Do you support the protesters in Egypt?. If the military regime currently in place falls, what will be done to protect the large section Orthodox Christians, who have been tageted many times in past by Egyptian Salafists, when Egypt falls to Islamic fundamentalists, which election results have already shown to be the case?

No, I do not fully support the protesters for precisely the reasons you cited. Democracy needs to evolve in a country, not be imposed overnight, otherwise the subtleties of the system are not understood, and you end up with the situation described by Benjamin Franklin, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

Militant Islamists, and even some Western politicians, see democracy as a justification to trample on minorities. Western countries have had hundreds of years to adapt their culture and their political systems to something which even today can be pretty fragile at times. The Arab world with its religious and tribal imperatives is probably not best suited for a Western style democracy. Personally I don't have an issue with that. Diversity in all things is good, especially politics.

Who knows, left alone they may even one day come up with a political system better than ours.

[IvoShandor]

The Sunni protestors knew from the track record of the Assad regime that this would be the exact precise outcome. Protesters hit the streets, police attacked, protestors shot dead by police, armed group shoot police dead, Army sent in, soldiers shot dead, soldiers shoot protestors, bombings on buses etc. and continue until the cycle gets worse and worse. It worked for the Kosovo Albanians in Yugoslavia that they knew that a response by Milosevic would be hamfisted and voila you get your NATO intervention after an escalation of violence which would see casualties on all sides.

So-given their record-if you know government goons will murder you, its your fault for inviting murder by protesting? By any standards that is called "courage".
So firing into crowds of unarmed people and abducting and murdering people is "hamfisted" now?

"ham-fisted, ham-handed -adj-Informal lacking dexterity or elegance; clumsy"

Talk about 'praising with faint damn' to invert a well known phrase. I'm sure the Israelis would love to invite this kind of vicious abuse

No, I do not fully support the protesters for precisely the reasons you cited. Democracy needs to evolve in a country, not be imposed overnight, otherwise the subtleties of the system are not understood, and you end up with the situation described by Benjamin Franklin, "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

Who knows, left alone they may even one day come up with a political system better than ours.

That is like complaining that the rain comes when it does'nt suit you. I'd love to see an actual example-outside of Utopia-where democracy came at the "right" time. It comes,usually by way of revolution, when the tides of history demand it or when the population have had enough of the old ways.

[Andy4571]

So-given their record-if you know government goons will murder you, its your fault for inviting murder by protesting? By any standards hat is called "courage".
So firing into crowds of unarmed people and abducting and murdering people is "hamfisted" now? Talk about 'praising with faint damn' to invert a well known phrase. I'm sure the Israelis would love to invite this kind of vicious abuse

Yeah, in Partizan's opinion, us Irish should never have risen up against the Brits either, and when we started an armed response/struggle to the British violence, it was all our fault when the Brits hit back hard, and Bloody Sunday in Croke Park etc...