Video of US forces urinating on dead Afghans

[Mr Aphorisms]

That post requires too much re-editing to form a readable point by point response. Howevery, here is a video of someone making essentially the points you make, and the finest rebuttle to those points I am ever likely to hear.

Christopher Hitchens answers islamic apologist's misinformed question - YouTube

Put aside, if you're able, who is doing the talking and listen. (Note, I am not calling you an Islamic apologist)

Again, apologies for the post, I don't know what happened. But I'll respond to Hitchens' conspiracies.

I'm a huge fan of Hitchens, even though I loathed his foreign policy views. I should also point out that I agree that there are Muslims out there who want to kill us because we're free. There are many who want to introduce the Shari'a. I've spoken to Muslims outside the GPO - there is an Islamic group often there promoting Islam - who told me that anyone who draws the prophet should be arrested. They were all nice guys and I was talking to them for hours, but I would be strongly against the Shari'a and ban on free speech - I was against the Blasphemy Law.

However, in saying all that, there is hardly a huge threat from Muslims in this country. There are many in England who cause tension by burning poppies, etc. I've watched and read many stuff from the EDL and while they're just as bad as radical Muslims, there is a threat from Islam. I just want to make that clear.

But to go on about the Taliban and Muslim Brotherhood wanting to takeover the world is just silly. They haven't the means to do that, neither have a few radical Islamists in England or western Europe. Which is why I said in the other post I am not paranoid about a Muslim take over, at all. That is why I kept bringing up Bin Laden to you. His organisation is the only one who has been aggressive in the "War On Terror." You kept mentioning aggression and that's why I kept talking about Bin Laden. But the aggression from Bin Laden had nothing to do with our way of life. Now, the Hitchens video, which I've seen before:

:0 to :15 I'm not a Marxist or a self hating lefty.

1:00 to 1:17 I am not even saying that the policy of supporting Israel for example is wrong. I am just saying that it is the driving force of Bin Laden's organisation. I don't personally care about Israel or Palestine.

On the point of East Timor and the U.N: Bin Laden is against the U.N for the sanctions in imposed on Iraq killing over one million women and children.

On the point of throwing acid in the face of women: This already happens in Saudi Arabia backed up by America. The Saudi's have the most draconian Islamic country on the planet. For that reason and for the exploitation of the oil and cheap prices, Bin Laden hated its current government and the west who backs it up.

On the cartoons? What the hell is Hitchen's on about? This has nothing at all to do with Bin Laden:

I have already said that we are not hostile to the people of the United States. We are against the system, which makes other nations slaves of the United States, or forces them to mortgage their political and economic freedom. The system is totally in the control of the American Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is simply that the American people themselves are the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid down by them. So, the punishment should reach Israel. In fact it is Israel which is giving a bloodbath to Muslims and the United States is not uttering a single word.

The Jewish stuff from Bin Laden is madness. But that is what is driving him, not our way of life. We're not even the main targets, the main targets are the Saudi's the Israeli's and Heretical Shia. Bin Laden also spoke about trading with the west, just as the Caliphate did. He said we can have all the oil we want. Muslim's don't drink oil or shower in it. They want to sell it at a reasonable price. We know how bad that is now, don't we?

"I'm going to fight these people." No, you're not Hitchens and you didn't. You were upset because you supported Saddam years ago and the fact that you were a fundamentalist atheist mean't you couldn't understand the region. And either are your children going to fight. Hitchens' kids run around campaigning for Atheism in England - that's the fight!

Hitchens was fighting for: Free expression, women's rights, self determination for small people and rights of Iraqi's.

So, America never says a word about the cruelty of the Saudi regime which squashes all of the above. America never talked about Bahrain, and all of the other Arab dictatorships it backs up.

Women are not free under Iraq now and while Saddam's sons were barbaric, rape crimes have exploded all over Iraq. Women flocked to Iraq to get degrees in college, now, they are forced to wear the veil and are not allowed in school. Does that mean I support Saddam? No. Does that mean that America is doing a good job? Yes. They want to impose man made laws in a region and promote democracy in a place that has hardly had it - except Iran which the American's and British stopped in 1953, Operation Ajax - and start a political form of government that we the west have been at for 800 years and we're hardly even good at it, are we?

If they all want freedom? Why have the Arab Springs turned into nightmares, Kevin? You yourself even said that the Afghan's are trying to undermine the government they have now. I agree with you. But what does that tell you? These people do not want our laws or our culture. Even the rich western behaving Muslims in the reigion are against the foreign policy of the states. The Council on foreign Relations has talked about this. The Eisenhower admin warned about it and it's what Bin Laden himself spoke about.

Do they hate our freedoms? Of course they do. Is that why they're attacking us? No, of course not, there is no evidence at all towards that. Unless you want to take small examples of radicals Muslims attacking people for no reason and say "they're all like that." Well, I'm sure you've seen on here some say all American troops are like the ones urinating on the troops? Are they? No. Do they all behave like Abu Grahib? No, of course they don't.

Hitchens then talks about the Lebanese wanting to have a "multicultural democracy." The man was beguiled by his own chicanery, he really was. That is complete and utter bull crap.

The Marxist who posed the question was kinda stupid. He didn't really give any clear question. It was vague. What I would have said would be:

"Mr. Hitchens, I'm a huge fan of yours. I don't really care about Israel or Palestine and I love your polemics about fundementalists in all religions. However, we have to stop kidding ourselves that this war is about women in the workplace or beer. This war is about American presnce in the middle east. That's not at all condemning the policy, it's simply stating the facts. From Eisenhower to the CFR, they've all spoken about this. I would love for the whole world to be secular and religion to be in the dustbin. But I know it will never happen.

Bin Laden was clear from 1996 why Bin Laden attacked America. He said 6 key reasons where, and these are excluding things such as U.N sanctions on Iraq which America supported and other events:

The U.S military and civilian presence in the Prophet's homeland on the Arabian peninsula
Washington's protection and support for tyrannical Muslim government's
Washington's unquestioning and unqualified support for Israel
Washington's support for countries that oppress Muslim's, especially Russia, India and China
U.S and western explotation of Muslim energy sources at below market prices
The U.S military presence in the Muslim world outside the Arab peninsula

Mr, Hitchen's, Bin Laden has gone out of his way to promulgate these points. Do I admire him? No. Do I respect him? Yes. 'They hate us because we're free' is a bull************************ argument with no evidence at all. Wil Bin Laden liberate the middle east? No, but he will be no worse than what we support now over there, including Mubarak and the corrupt Kings in Saudi Arabia.

So my question is: Why have the American government lied about why they hate us? Why don't they just say: 'We're being attacked over our foreign policy and mainly our support for Israel. America, the choice is yours: Do you want to continue with these policies or do you want to change foreign policy?'"

I'm not going to type out a long dialogue, but that is pretty much what I would say. The 9/11 Commission got many things right, but many things wrong. It said Bin laden was a takfiri, when he wasn't, at all. He denounced Takfirism, so much for him wanting to enslave Muslimes. Read about his accounts in Afghanistan with botched Muslims, he warned stricter Muslims to lead by example, not to force them to be more Islamic. If you're looking at this thinking I'm defending Bin laden, I'm sorry, but it is how he was in person.

I have the CFR to back me up. I have the Eisenhower admin to back me up. I have the C.I.A's Bin laden unit to back me up. The head of that unit was Michael Scheuer who compared OBL's 1996 FATWA to Jefferson and the declaration of independence.

Hitchen's repeatedly brushed aside anything Bin Laden said. He said something along the lines of before that "Bin Laden was quoting Chomsky to just divert from his real agenda." That is absolutely nonsense, it really is. Hitchen's never got into Bin Laden's reasoning. He took one of his main three points(it was not one of his main points, but how and ever, why stop when you're lying through your teeth?) and went along with it then off into other tangents.

American foreign policy is the reason they were attacked. Have you seen Omar Bin Laden, the secular son of Bin Laden? He recalls a speech that his father gave to him about driving out the American's. Are you saying he told him this as a child to beguile his son about the real reasons why he hated the states?

"First we obliterate the American's. By that I don't mean militarily. We can destroy America from within by making it economically weak, until its market's collapse. When that happens, they'll have no interest in supplying Israel with arms....... that's what we did to the Russian's. We bled the blood from their body in Afganistan. The Russian's spent all of their wealth on the war in Afganistan......... We can do the same thing with America and Israel. We only have to be patient.

Hitchen's was not an expert on the middle east, at all. His atheism got the better of him. Robert Fisk is more credible than Hitchen's and so is Chomsky. Not content with left wingers? try Michael Sceheur, the man who knows more about Bin Laden then probably anyone:




"If you want to know why we attack you, read Michael Schuer and Noam Chomsky." Osama Bin Laden

Hitchen's found this to be laughable and only concentrated on what Bin Laden wanted "after" the American's left. If you want to do that, go ahead, reasonable thing to say. Just don't lie and talk about "they hate us for our freedom." The biggest conspiracy theory of them all. Right up there with Judy Wood and holograms.

Again, I'm not apologizing for Bin laden and I condone 9/11. But this war has nothing, not one thing, to do with our freedoms. I got angry with you on the first post because you were throwing a billion people under the same bus. You were not differentiating between radical Muslims and others. Just because some want the Shari'a doesn't mean they want to take over the world, etc. Shari'a in the Islamic community(which I'm against in our western culture) is different than Shari'a for all.

Ron Paul listens to the enemy - therefore, is a kook, according to Republicans I've talked about this before in a long thread.

[Mr Aphorisms]

C'mon, Kevin. I took time out to make that post. Sorry for the spelling mistakes and other things. I had a fitness class at half 8 so was in a rush last night to reply. Also, I repaired that other post which you said was hard to re edit.

[Desperate Dan]

These clowns are shown in films as being hard and dedicated to their country, now we are told they are going to be potty trained.
Of course some people will say, that is because Bush lowered the IQ level by several points in order to boost troop levels.
But are they all that retarded ?, even at officer level.