Is the Irish left anti-Semitic?

[dubsthcentralboy]

As far as I know there are many Jewish people who would condemn of the actions of Israel, some also disagree with Zionism. Are they anti-semitic?

I disagree with much of what Israel does, including the occupation. Nor do I support Zionism. However, it's the one-sidedness that pisses me off.

[KeithM]

If you want to stop the terrorism, stop the occupation is the message I would give Israel.

So to follow your logic, we should've compelled the Brits to leave the North before even considering that the IRA should stop murdering people.

The difference of course is that legally NI was part of the UK whereas UN Security Council Resolutions, including 242, require Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967. In that regard, the Palestinians arguably have an even stronger case than Northern nationalists. While condemning terrorism I do not condemn resistance to illegal occupation in the form of combat against the IDF. Attacking civilians obviously does not constitute legitimate resistance to occupation. Which is also why Israel should end its targetting of civilians for house-demolition including its barbaric policy of demolishing homes of relatives of Hamas members whose only crime is to be related to Hamas members. The Zionazis need to stop their imperialism.

Israel has withdrawn from over half the territory won in 1967 (after its Arab neighbours invaded, let's not forget). Sinai is now back in Egyptian hands, Israel has also withdrawn from Gaza.

This leaves the Golan Heights. Given the strategic advantage of this area, I don't (or wouldn't want to) see this land go back to Styria, especially under its current regime.

This leaves East Jerusalem and the West Bank. This land was occupied by Jordan. However Jordan has withdrawn its claim to this land, so until an agreement is reached on what portion should stay under Israeli control and what if any should go to "Palestine", they Israeli is quite within its right to stay there.

[DaraghM]

The SWP have this weird 'unconditional support' for Hamas and opposition to zionism thing going so they would kind of distort the whole demo. Others on the left would have a little bit more of a developed outlook on the situation in Israel/Palestine.

And I am surprised that there is a PD member with such a forward looking attitude to the situation.

Well that's because the PDs have been largely caricatured by their political opponents, and McDowell has been similarly hard done by the media (though not saying he hasn't made it an easy task sometimes.)

[Doylers]

If you want to stop the terrorism, stop the occupation is the message I would give Israel.

So to follow your logic, we should've compelled the Brits to leave the North before even considering that the IRA should stop murdering people.

The difference of course is that legally NI was part of the UK whereas UN Security Council Resolutions, including 242, require Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967. In that regard, the Palestinians arguably have an even stronger case than Northern nationalists. While condemning terrorism I do not condemn resistance to illegal occupation in the form of combat against the IDF. Attacking civilians obviously does not constitute legitimate resistance to occupation. Which is also why Israel should end its targetting of civilians for house-demolition including its barbaric policy of demolishing homes of relatives of Hamas members whose only crime is to be related to Hamas members. The Zionazis need to stop their imperialism.

How disgusting to use the term Zionazi. The hatred for the Jewish people in Ireland is disgusting.

So, you seem to equate legality with the UN Security Council. What about the Irish Constitution? surely before the GFA referendum Ireland viewed the North as an occupied part of Ireland? Was resistance then legitimate? Enniskillen, Ballygawley etc?

I think you are confusing people who are against the occupation of Palestiine, with people who hate Jews. You dont necessarily have to hate both.

[FutureTaoiseach]

How disgusting to use the term Zionazi. The hatred for the Jewish people in Ireland is disgusting.

So, you seem to equate legality with the UN Security Council. What about the Irish Constitution? surely before the GFA referendum Ireland viewed the North as an occupied part of Ireland? Was resistance then legitimate? Enniskillen, Ballygawley etc?

It isn't hatred of the Jews it is hatred of Israeli imperialism and expansionism. I do not apologise for using that term. I define Zionazism as the ideology that seeks a Greater Israel and the ethnic-cleansing of Arabs and the colonisation of lands from which they are being expelled. The biggest cause of anti-semitism in the world today is the State of Israel because of the hatred they have brought on themselves in the Muslim world and among people who despise their imperialistic antics - including some Jewish people. I recall seeing an episode of Newsnight on BBC2 some time ago (I think last yr) in which there were 3 English Jews, 2 of which were critical of Israel. So don't try labelling me an anti-semite because what I am criticising are the policies of a State and I am not criticising an ethno-religious group.

I oppose the actions of the various IRA that existed after Southern Irish independence in terms of violence in Northern Ireland - even though I believe the Northern statelet should not have been created. I feel that UN Security Council Resolutions ought to be considered as having primacy over national law.

[dubsthcentralboy]

How disgusting to use the term Zionazi. The hatred for the Jewish people in Ireland is disgusting.

So, you seem to equate legality with the UN Security Council. What about the Irish Constitution? surely before the GFA referendum Ireland viewed the North as an occupied part of Ireland? Was resistance then legitimate? Enniskillen, Ballygawley etc?

It isn't hatred of the Jews it is hatred of Israeli imperialism and expansionism. I do not apologise for using that term. I define Zionazism as the ideology that seeks a Greater Israel and the ethnic-cleansing of Arabs and the colonisation of lands from which they are being expelled. The biggest cause of anti-semitism in the world today is the State of Israel because of the hatred they have brought on themselves in the Muslim world and among people who despise their imperialistic antics - including some Jewish people. I recall seeing an episode of Newsnight on BBC2 some time ago (I think last yr) in which there were 3 English Jews, 2 of which were critical of Israel. So don't try labelling me an anti-semite because what I am criticising are the policies of a State and I am not criticising an ethno-religious group.

So, the modern state of Israel is to blame for anti-Semitism? What caused Europeans to slaughter between 5 and 7 million Jews before Israel exisyed in the 1930s and 1050s?

[DaraghM]

He said anti-semitism IN THE WORLD TODAY you plank. Don't distort his words.

[Coles]

This charge is always thrown at critics of Israel as a way of silencing criticism of Israel. I am definitely not a lefty but one thing I will credit the Left for is their deserved criticism of Israel - a country claiming to be a Western democracy but - as the only Western country seeking to expand its territory by war - it is behaving more like a European colonial empire of centuries past. The Left are not anti-semitic. And as for terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians - of course I would condemn that. However, we are viewing this from a similar angle as the Northern Ireland conflict i.e. that while we condemn the terrorism, the root cause came from injustices only recently resolved. If you want to stop the terrorism, stop the occupation is the message I would give Israel. And while their at it, they should stop the settlements and the house-demolitions. Given Irish history, you cannot blame us for having a certain sympathy for separatism. And tell me this. Would you have supported British airstrikes on Dublin in response to PIRA terrorism in London? Then why support Israeli bombing in Lebanon last year, which has only served to increase any threat Israel might face by fuelling support for Hezbollah?

And while I am not anti-semitic, I would express the view that Jewish people living in Ireland ought to look at both sides of the story.

Good post FT. You've taken the first step towards saving your soul.

[FutureTaoiseach]

How disgusting to use the term Zionazi. The hatred for the Jewish people in Ireland is disgusting.

So, you seem to equate legality with the UN Security Council. What about the Irish Constitution? surely before the GFA referendum Ireland viewed the North as an occupied part of Ireland? Was resistance then legitimate? Enniskillen, Ballygawley etc?

It isn't hatred of the Jews it is hatred of Israeli imperialism and expansionism. I do not apologise for using that term. I define Zionazism as the ideology that seeks a Greater Israel and the ethnic-cleansing of Arabs and the colonisation of lands from which they are being expelled. The biggest cause of anti-semitism in the world today is the State of Israel because of the hatred they have brought on themselves in the Muslim world and among people who despise their imperialistic antics - including some Jewish people. I recall seeing an episode of Newsnight on BBC2 some time ago (I think last yr) in which there were 3 English Jews, 2 of which were critical of Israel. So don't try labelling me an anti-semite because what I am criticising are the policies of a State and I am not criticising an ethno-religious group.

So, the modern state of Israel is to blame for anti-Semitism? What caused Europeans to slaughter between 5 and 7 million Jews before Israel exisyed in the 1930s and 1050s?

And Ireland had no role in that. The reality is that the Nazis and their collaborators in occupied-Europe were responsible for that. Of course not all of Europe was involved so it would be wrong to tar all Europeans with the one brush - similarly I am not tarring all Jews or Israelis with one brush when accusing the State of Israel of imperialism and expansionism. When accusing Israel of encouraging anti-semitism by their actions, I am referring to postwar anti-semitism. This doesn't excuse anti-semitism of course. Criticism and indeed condemnation of Israeli imperialism and occupation is entirely justified whereas anti-semitism is not.

Good post FT. You've taken the first step towards saving your soul.

LOL I hope not!

[dubsthcentralboy]

How disgusting to use the term Zionazi. The hatred for the Jewish people in Ireland is disgusting.

So, you seem to equate legality with the UN Security Council. What about the Irish Constitution? surely before the GFA referendum Ireland viewed the North as an occupied part of Ireland? Was resistance then legitimate? Enniskillen, Ballygawley etc?

It isn't hatred of the Jews it is hatred of Israeli imperialism and expansionism. I do not apologise for using that term. I define Zionazism as the ideology that seeks a Greater Israel and the ethnic-cleansing of Arabs and the colonisation of lands from which they are being expelled. The biggest cause of anti-semitism in the world today is the State of Israel because of the hatred they have brought on themselves in the Muslim world and among people who despise their imperialistic antics - including some Jewish people. I recall seeing an episode of Newsnight on BBC2 some time ago (I think last yr) in which there were 3 English Jews, 2 of which were critical of Israel. So don't try labelling me an anti-semite because what I am criticising are the policies of a State and I am not criticising an ethno-religious group.

So, the modern state of Israel is to blame for anti-Semitism? What caused Europeans to slaughter between 5 and 7 million Jews before Israel exisyed in the 1930s and 1050s?

And Ireland had no role in that. The reality is that the Nazis and their collaborators in occupied-Europe were responsible for that. Of course not all of Europe was involved so it would be wrong to tar all Europeans with the one brush - similarly I am not tarring all Jews or Israelis with one brush when accusing the State of Israel of imperialism and expansionism. When accusing Israel of encouraging anti-semitism by their actions, I am referring to postwar anti-semitism. This doesn't excuse anti-semitism of course. Criticism and indeed condemnation of Israeli imperialism and occupation is entirely justified whereas anti-semitism is not.

[quote:29zvl78w]Good post FT. You've taken the first step towards saving your soul.

LOL I hope not! [/quote:29zvl78w]

Well, I wouldn't agree that Ireland has no role. The failure to take in Jewish refugees is unforgiveable.

I don't, howver, believe that criticism of Israel is [i]per se[i] anti-Semitic. I criticise a lot of what Israel does. However, I do find terms like 'Zionazi' offensive in the extreme. Anyone who has spent any time (as I have) with people who have survived the systematic attempt to destroy the Jewish people would never use such an offensive term.