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  1. #11
    Nicky O Donnell Nicky O Donnell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    Massive jumping to conclusions here.

    First the BBC haven't seen any evidence that 85 Civilians were killed. That was just a claim from the Libyan government and of course they aren't neutral. It's in their interest to lie about these things as they want to get the reaction in the West that we see in this thread.

    The BBC have seen evidence of 30 Bodybags, only half of which were opened and all but three contained men of fighting age. Quite simply it's impossible to know how any of them were killed. They could have been Gaddafi's soldiers, they could have been civilians or they could have been basically anyone who was moved there.

    If 85 people were killed, including 33 children, 32 women and 20 men, them I'm sure Gaffafi would have shown the press evidence of that. The fact that he doesn't strongly suggests that he's lieing.

    Quite simply we don't have a clue what happens, but for very obvious reasons I'd be very slow to believe Gaffadi. The lack of evidence to support his argument, suggest that Gaffadi is lieing, but that's about all we have.
    It would appear that you are the one jumping to conclusions.

    You stated that only half the body bags were opened. You completely made this up because it doesn't say that in the BBC report at all. You have no idea how many were opened. You also ignored the fact that the report opened with a mass funeral of a further 20 bodies. What do you think would be in unopened body bags anyway, potatoes? You can't really expect them to have the full body count on display for the BBC. Families tend to want to bury their dead or look after them themselves.

    You also used "men of fighting age" line to try to legitimise the attack. That is not evidence. You ignored the fact that women and children were killed including a two year old, and you ignored testimony from an injured young girl stating that "there was no military camp. We were just living there". Whether it was 50 people or 85 is not important. What is key is that there is very clear evidence of many civilian casualties and zero evidence that this was a legitimate target.

    When this report was filmed the building was still smoldering. Libya seems to be relatively open in terms of media access so if there was any evidence of this being a legitimate military target the right wing media would produce it. They haven't. So any logical and unbiased person could only come to one conclusion on the evidence presented.
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  2. #12
    Destiny's Soldier Destiny's Soldier is offline
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  3. #13
    tyke2010 tyke2010 is offline

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    I was reading an interesting article today about the NTC: it seems more concerned with appeasing the West than being approved of by the Libyans it is supposed to represent.

    We've nothing but a neo-colonial war going on. Before we know it, Libya will have a Starbucks and McDonalds in every town and city; capitalism will be rife whereby control of the wealth is taken from the State and into the banks, and misery, suffering and woe chokes the nation. Meanwhile, the Yanks plunder everything.

    Furthermore, I wonder how the reaction would be if, in light of the anarchy across the UK, a foreign nation imposed no-fly zones over it, armed and funded the rioters and tried to overthrow David Cameron...


    'How the West Hijacked the Libyan Uprising'
    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p...article/10972/
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  4. #14
    Rocky Rocky is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky O Donnell View Post
    It would appear that you are the one jumping to conclusions.

    You stated that only half the body bags were opened. You completely made this up because it doesn't say that in the BBC report at all. You have no idea how many were opened. You also ignored the fact that the report opened with a mass funeral of a further 20 bodies. What do you think would be in unopened body bags anyway, potatoes? You can't really expect them to have the full body count on display for the BBC. Families tend to want to bury their dead or look after them themselves.
    Ah:
    The BBC's Matthew Price says he saw about 30 white body bags at the hospital, while on a guided government tour.

    Half the bags were opened to the media, he says, with the majority revealing men of fighting age, and also two children and two women
    Before you call me a liar you should read the link.

    My guess would be that the unopened bags contained men of fighting age, as Qaddafi would naturally want to show as many dead women and children to the media as possible. I'd imagine all the bodies would be in a morgue of some sort first and I don't see why these 30 would be different to the other 55.

    You also used "men of fighting age" line to try to legitimise the attack. That is not evidence. You ignored the fact that women and children were killed including a two year old, and you ignored testimony from an injured young girl stating that "there was no military camp. We were just living there". Whether it was 50 people or 85 is not important. What is key is that there is very clear evidence of many civilian casualties and zero evidence that this was a legitimate target.
    Men of fighting age is the BBC's line and yes it is evidence that they were men of fighting age as they were men of fighting age. I state that 3 bodies were not men of fighting age i.e. women and children, so no I didn't ignore that. Who is the girl? Qaddafi still has a lot of supporters and they will say what he wants them to say. Propaganda like that is very easy to set up and Gaddafi has always been good at propaganda.

    When this report was filmed the building was still smoldering. Libya seems to be relatively open in terms of media access so if there was any evidence of this being a legitimate military target the right wing media would produce it. They haven't. So any logical and unbiased person could only come to one conclusion on the evidence presented.
    If you read any coverage from any reputable media outlet, you would know that areas that Gaddafi controls are incredibly closed to media access and the media are open about that. The media are shown what Gaddafi what's them to see and nothing else. They constantly complain of being refused access to places.

    I have no idea what happened and said that in the last post. Gaddafi naturally says that loads of civilians died, NATO naturally says that none or very few did. Gaddafi's fails to back up his claims though and I am very slow to believe anything that man says. Maybe Civilians did die and NATO made a mistake. Once again I don't know. But I'm not going to automatically believe a mass murdering tyrant like Qaddafi just because it suits my political bias like you.
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  5. #15
    Nicky O Donnell Nicky O Donnell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    I have no idea what happened and said that in the last post. Gaddafi naturally says that loads of civilians died, NATO naturally says that none or very few did. Gaddafi's fails to back up his claims though and I am very slow to believe anything that man says. Maybe Civilians did die and NATO made a mistake. Once again I don't know. But I'm not going to automatically believe a mass murdering tyrant like Qaddafi just because it suits my political bias like you.
    What else does Gadaffi need to back up here? The physical evidence points to this being purely an attack on civilians.

    The area was wide open to the media immediately after the incident with no restrictions at all. The evidence of civilian death is crystal clear. The evidence of this being a legitimate strategic target is completely non existent.

    We all know Gadaffi will lie but looking at this incident in isolation the Libyans would appear to be telling the truth while NATO are once again completely out of order.
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  6. #16
    tyke2010 tyke2010 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    But I'm not going to automatically believe a mass murdering tyrant like Qaddafi just because it suits my political bias like you.

    No, but you'll automatically believe mass murdering so-called advocates of democracy like Obama, Sarkozy, Blair and Bush.

    This isn't about who's deemed a tyrant, because if you had any grasp of reality, you'd acknowledge that we Westerners are far more tyrannical with our imperialistic agendas than any other nation on Earth. In your eyes, we can never do any wrong. We are the victims for some bizarre reason everytime, yet we readily export terror, fear and carnage abroad. One only needs to take a look at the USA's dirty record, for example.

    Nor is it about right vs wrong: in both cases, there are baddies- a dictator like Gaddafi on one side, and on the other the neo-imperialists of the Western world and their colonial army- NATO, who have the power of the media and military behind them. I mean, just look at these conferences and summits they have on Libya as though it's one of their overseas territories or an item of their personal property: IT'S COLONIALISM! Who are they to pompously discuss Libya according to their whims? Where is the rest of the so-called 'international community' we always hear about? The international community is comprised of our white, Western nations and leaders, not the other 'coloured' nations of the world, or indeed the UN, such as Venezuela, Burundi, Indonesia and China. It's racial supremacy pure and simple.

    So in effect, what you should be doing is looking at the wrong and condemning it. Just because a civilian is killed by NATO, it does not make it less serious. By refusing to take Gaddafi's words seriously just because you're against him and despite the fact that what he's saying is true, then you are effectively saying that civilian deaths by NATO both do not matter, and are justified because the casualties were automatically Gaddafi-ites and therefore guilty of some wrongdoing (I'm guessing that as being mourned by Gaddafi).

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  7. #17
    Calig Calig is offline

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    It seems Amnesty finds NATO's denial of civilian casualties to be unconvincing.

    The organization called on NATO to thoroughly investigate allegations of the deaths of unarmed civilians during the air strike in the area of Majar, south of Zlitan city.

    Independent journalists taken to the scene reported having been shown up to 30 body bags, of which the bodies of two women and two children were revealed
    NATO urged to investigate civilian deaths during Libya air strikes | Amnesty International


    The BBC's Matthew Price was one of the journalists taken to see the aftermath of the strike and here is his report

    BBC News - What really happened in Libya's Zlitan?
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  8. #18
    tyke2010 tyke2010 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calig View Post
    It seems Amnesty finds NATO's denial of civilian casualties to be unconvincing.



    NATO urged to investigate civilian deaths during Libya air strikes | Amnesty International


    The BBC's Matthew Price was one of the journalists taken to see the aftermath of the strike and here is his report

    BBC News - What really happened in Libya's Zlitan?

    Alas, will Western leaders be hauled before the ICC? Doubt it.
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  9. #19
    Calig Calig is offline

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    The UN Chief has voiced concern over rising civilian casualties.

    "The secretary general is deeply concerned by reports of the unacceptably large number of civilian casualties as a result of the conflict in Libya,"

    "The secretary general calls on all parties to exercise extreme caution in their actions, in order to minimize any further loss of civilian life,"
    UN chief Ban alarmed over rising civilian toll in Libya - Channel NewsAsia
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  10. #20
    Kevin Parlon Kevin Parlon is offline
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    Not a whitter out of Noddy and the rest of the comrades about these things of course. All of them, deliberate actions. All of them, since Feb this year. Not to mention of course his personal ownership of the country for decades. You bitter, narrowminded gobsh1tes sicken my ass.

    17 Crimes committed by Gaddafi against Libyan people | Off the Strip for free thinkers and adventurers

    1- Shooting at unarmed protestors

    2- Burning houses of people in Tripoli who called Al Jazeera

    3- Looting houses of people suspected to have protested against Gaddafi

    4- Torturing kidnapped people to death

    5- Shutting off water, electricity and communication to cities

    6- Indiscriminate shelling of cities with BM21 grad rockets & tanks

    7- Attacking ambulances & hospitals and killing injured

    8- Using ambulances to move forces & attack on protestors

    9- Kill doctors for treating injured people after hospitals were closed for people

    10- Using State TV to encourage violence.

    11- Attacking & destroying mosques

    12- Using sleeper cells in Benghazi to randomly shoot at civilians to create chaos

    13- Forcing migrant workers to join mercenary training camps

    14- Stealing all money, phones & other stuff of refuges

    15- Attacking livestock near attacked cities

    16- Destroying graves of dead protestors, taking away bodies to unknown place

    17- Bringing in people to dance with Gaddafi pictures in massacred cities.
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