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  1. #911
    Fractional Reserve Fractional Reserve is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    Socialism is not the same as the Lenin Marxist regime that was in the USSR - in fact that wasnt communism as Marx envisioned either.
    Enlightened me how socialism works , how its so nice and productive without force
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  2. #912
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fractional Reserve View Post
    Enlightened me how socialism works , how its so nice and productive without force
    Take a look at Sweden, Finland and many European countries. That is how socialism works effectively. Would you like to live in the US? A gun in the house for fear your fellow citizens will come and kill you, and no health care and a crumbling education system. Socialism is a force for good. Equality in society is good. I believe its communism you fear, though you'd know all about working hard if you lived in a communist country . You'd like it actually. I believe the USSR used to put work shy people in jail - not so different to the capitalist dream (though maybe they'd prefer you starved and died - much cheaper ). Do you like the idea of privatised jails for instance? They're a great money spinner in the US. You can get thousands upon thousands for one low level offender from the state, you can charge them for clothes in jail and they come out with debt. Then (this is the great part), because they've a conviction they cant get a job. So then, when they don't pay back their loans - they go to jail for that! Kind of like socialism for the rich.

    Perhaps if so called 'capitalist' countries stopped making the state pay for the banks that behaved illegally and recklessly then I might agree with you that it is a fair enough system. True capitalism lets those business go to the ground, the state is not obliged to socialise their debts. For instance Anglo was not of 'systemic importance'. Boi and AIB were (not sure about TSB - think they should be included too). They were the two(three) banks that all the credit unions/anglo and fingers Irish Nation wide had their accounts with. If you look at the sort codes - 90 stands for BOI, 93 stands for AIB, 99 stands for TSB - Anglo and Irish nationwide did not have sort codes - that is their money was lodged in one of these main banks. Those banks BOI etc had sorting offices and were also responsible for processing cheques and giving and receiving money orders to and from all the various other banks and credit unions and An Post - sorting offices - physical set ups to deal with huge amounts of cash) Their system was therefore not of systemic importance to the running of the banking system. I could be wrong in this, but that's my take on it.

    The only problem with Angola etc. was mismanagement on a huge scale and the important banks, jealous of their (Anglo) so called profit (it wasnt profit at all of course, just borrowing huge amounts and some algorithm made up to say this was a HUGE credit on the system) copied this rogue institution. Now we have Nama - and who did Lenihan pick to run this? Why did he pay developers six figure sums? Why did he introduce secrecy laws so we didnt know what was going on? Of course I dont understand any of it, but then, as far as we can tell, nobody can, though look up Jonathan Sugerman - he resigned from his banking job and reported what was going on and was punished for following the law. Tis all mad stuff!
    Edit
    NIB had a sort code too beginning with 95 and Ulster Bank 98. I'd like to add, that no bank employee had their pay reduced, indeed the 'managers' still got bonuses (I had the wife of one giggling to me a few years ago about it and sure I giggled along with her). They all got big pay outs when they reduced staff in the tens of thousands (low level workers - God only knows what the fellas who did their intercerts in the 60's/70's got - they'd have been management by that stage that money came from the bail out. )
    Last edited by ellie08; 3rd December 2016 at 11:37 PM.
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  3. #913
    FrankGarrett FrankGarrett is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    Take a look at Sweden, Finland and many European countries. That is how socialism works effectively.
    You're confusing socialism with social democracy. The Scandinavian countries are still capitalist economies. They are not socialist.
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  4. #914
    storybud1 storybud1 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    Take a look at Sweden, Finland and many European countries. That is how socialism works effectively. Would you like to live in the US? A gun in the house for fear your fellow citizens will come and kill you, and no health care and a crumbling education system. Socialism is a force for good. Equality in society is good. I believe its communism you fear, though you'd know all about working hard if you lived in a communist country . You'd like it actually. I believe the USSR used to put work shy people in jail - not so different to the capitalist dream (though maybe they'd prefer you starved and died - much cheaper ). Do you like the idea of privatised jails for instance? They're a great money spinner in the US. You can get thousands upon thousands for one low level offender from the state, you can charge them for clothes in jail and they come out with debt. Then (this is the great part), because they've a conviction they cant get a job. So then, when they don't pay back their loans - they go to jail for that! Kind of like socialism for the rich.

    Perhaps if so called 'capitalist' countries stopped making the state pay for the banks that behaved illegally and recklessly then I might agree with you that it is a fair enough system. True capitalism lets those business go to the ground, the state is not obliged to socialise their debts. For instance Anglo was not of 'systemic importance'. Boi and AIB were (not sure about TSB - think they should be included too). They were the two(three) banks that all the credit unions/anglo and fingers Irish Nation wide had their accounts with. If you look at the sort codes - 90 stands for BOI, 93 stands for AIB, 99 stands for TSB - Anglo and Irish nationwide did not have sort codes - that is their money was lodged in one of these main banks. Those banks had sorting offices and were also responsible for processing cheques and giving and receiving money orders to and from all the various other banks and credit unions and An Post - sorting offices - physical set ups to deal with huge amounts of cash) Their system was therefore not of systemic importance to the running of the banking system. I could be wrong in this, but that's my take on it.

    The only problem with Angola etc. was mismanagement on a huge scale and the important banks, jealous of their (Anglo) so called profit (it wasnt profit at all of course, just borrowing huge amounts and some algorithm made up to say this was a HUGE credit on the system) copied this rogue institution. Now we have Nama - and who did Lenihan pick to run this? Why did he pay developers six figure sums? Why did he introduce secrecy laws so we didnt know what was going on? Of course I dont understand any of it, but then, as far as we can tell, nobody can, though look up Jonathan Sugerman - he resigned from his banking job and reported what was going on and was punished for following the law. Tis all mad stuff!
    Edit
    NIB had a sort code too beginning with 95 and Ulster Bank 98. I'd like to add, that no bank employee had their pay reduced, indeed the 'managers' still got bonuses (I had the wife of one giggling to me a few years ago about it and sure I giggled along with her). They all got big pay outs when they reduced staff in the tens of thousands (low level workers - God only knows what the fellas who did their intercerts in the 60's/70's got - they'd have been management by that stage that money came from the bail out. )
    Sweden is a highly liberal Country (but not for long) , not a socialist one and is fast turning into a kip, the banks are a whole saga of powerplays by German/French/American gangsters operating within government. Responsible capitalism based on meritocracy and jobs is best, putting people on the dole for life is the socialist mentality as they create virtually nothing new.

    Responsible Capitalism also means voters should respond to policies that are best for their Country in the long term, socialist Countries are sh1t because they seem to draw the most dangerous, greedy, egotistic politicians to the top. Hollande and Castro are the latest examples, fooking useless but get fawned over by dipso's like our own egotistical pretend socialist 200K a year clown in the Aras.
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  5. #915
    Kevin Parlon Kevin Parlon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taidhg Gaelach View Post
    Thanks to Socialist policies, millions of Venezuelans have been risen up from abject poverty and despair. Thanks to US régime terrorism, that magnificent achievement is now being threatened.




    3 million people will be lifted out of poverty between now and Christmas. Capitalism is the greatest alleviator of needless human suffering that humans have discovered.


    Quote Originally Posted by mossyman View Post
    I wasn't defending the Venezualan Government as I don't know a huge amount about that situation. I was explaining why the US intervenes to prevent countries pursuing alternative economic and social policies as it did in Cuba, Vietnam, Chile, El Salador, etc. etc. It is imperative that no country should succeed in creating a socialist alternative, the more likely they are to do this the greater the resistance will be from the US.
    Everywhere revolutionary socialism has been tried; everywhere and without exception it has resulted in tyranny and poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossyman View Post
    The yanks know that if an alternative model of economic development were allowed to succeed in another country then they couldn't get away with keeping whole swathes of their own population impoverished under wage slavery.
    LOL
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  6. #916
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by storybud1 View Post
    Sweden is a highly liberal Country (but not for long) , not a socialist one and is fast turning into a kip, the banks are a whole saga of powerplays by German/French/American gangsters operating within government. Responsible capitalism based on meritocracy and jobs is best, putting people on the dole for life is the socialist mentality as they create virtually nothing new.

    Responsible Capitalism also means voters should respond to policies that are best for their Country in the long term, socialist Countries are sh1t because they seem to draw the most dangerous, greedy, egotistic politicians to the top. Hollande and Castro are the latest examples, fooking useless but get fawned over by dipso's like our own egotistical pretend socialist 200K a year clown in the Aras.

    Ha haaa story bud! Are you actually equating Irish politicians with having socialist ideals - you're a gas man!
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  7. #917
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parlon View Post


    3 million people will be lifted out of poverty between now and Christmas. Capitalism is the greatest alleviator of needless human suffering that humans have discovered.




    Everywhere revolutionary socialism has been tried; everywhere and without exception it has resulted in tyranny and poverty.



    LOL

    And everywhere its been thwarted - and what filled its vacuum - oh yes - Muslim extremism (ah - the glorious Mujahadeen for example (80's), evil terrorists (00's) Never mind Afghanistan was just doing fine and dandy and education and equality for women under soviet system. Don't take it from me. Go read a bit of Chomsky for yourself, though you probably know better than him. The big evil commies have been defeated and didnt we get a lovely set of loonies trained, armed and funded by that great liberating force - the US of A!
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  8. #918
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankGarrett View Post
    You're confusing socialism with social democracy. The Scandinavian countries are still capitalist economies. They are not socialist.
    Nope. - then you're confusing social democracy with capitalism. Its a combination of the two and the best idea
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  9. #919
    Kevin Parlon Kevin Parlon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    Socialism is not the same as the Lenin Marxist regime that was in the USSR - in fact that wasnt communism as Marx envisioned either.
    Do you know how hackneyed a response this has become? It even has its own memes now.

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  10. #920
    Kevin Parlon Kevin Parlon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    And everywhere its been thwarted - and what filled its vacuum - oh yes - Muslim extremism (ah - the glorious Mujahadeen for example (80's), evil terrorists (00's) Never mind Afghanistan was just doing fine and dandy and education and equality for women under soviet system. Don't take it from me. Go read a bit of Chomsky for yourself, though you probably know better than him. The big evil commies have been defeated and didnt we get a lovely set of loonies trained, armed and funded by that great liberating force - the US of A!
    Thanks. Now where are we? Ah, that's right we're in a reality where capitalism lifts billions of people out of poverty and socialism immiserates them. It's amazing that with all the examples people still insist socialism has something to offer humanity.
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