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  1. #11
    ffc ffc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by CookieMonster View Post
    What re you saying? That would never happen! Chavez is a democrat, Venezuela is a democracy....


    Isn't it?

    You bet it is. You can even try to overthrow the government by violent methods and still stay out of jail.

    Free press? Venezuela beats the US | Mark Weisbrot | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
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  2. #12
    MrFunkyBoogaloo MrFunkyBoogaloo is offline

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    Not to be glib (or pro Chavez) but many in the crony capitalist society of Ireland cannot keep their lights on either.
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  3. #13
    Mossy Heneberry Mossy Heneberry is offline
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    Waiting for all the socialists to come on and tell us that Chavez is actually a rabid rightwinger.
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  4. #14
    antiestablishmentarian antiestablishmentarian is offline
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    Funny that people always seek to knock underdeveloped countries which try a different route, when in this country thousands had their electricity knocked off last year for inability to pay bills. Perhaps some here will remember the parable about having a splinter in your eye and berating your neighbour for the dust in their eye. As for Venezuela being a democracy, did Chavez or did he not respect the results of the last referendum where he lost? If memory serves me right I'm pretty sure he did. Perhaps the establishment here could learn a few lessons on democracy from Venezuela when it comes to respecting referendum results.
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  5. #15
    meriwether meriwether is offline

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    I must point out that if the central tenent of your post is that Socialism/Chavez is failing/failed due to an economic recession, then Capitalism and democracy itself has also failed, numerous times.

    Also, rolling blackouts have happened in California.

    Chavez may or may not fail. Its currently not looking good. Socialism may or may not work. Currently it doesn't. But tamer forms of it clearly do. Its whetehr this version of 'what works' is preferrable to a capitalist/tamer capitalist version of 'what works'.

    I'd go for the capitalist one every day myself.
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  6. #16
    arcadeparade arcadeparade is offline

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    Venezuelans in general have a far better standard of living than they did before they elected Chavez. And everyone in this thread is throwing white elephants and red herrings at each other!

    ducks
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  7. #17
    Cassandra Syndrome Cassandra Syndrome is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    Funny that people always seek to knock underdeveloped countries which try a different route, when in this country thousands had their electricity knocked off last year for inability to pay bills. Perhaps some here will remember the parable about having a splinter in your eye and berating your neighbour for the dust in their eye. As for Venezuela being a democracy, did Chavez or did he not respect the results of the last referendum where he lost? If memory serves me right I'm pretty sure he did. Perhaps the establishment here could learn a few lessons on democracy from Venezuela when it comes to respecting referendum results.
    We are victims of central planning as well. Its the same thing whether its neo liberalism, Keynesian or Chavez's style of socialism.

    This country never really had a democracy. It has a decent constitution however.
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  8. #18
    Cassandra Syndrome Cassandra Syndrome is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by meriwether View Post
    I must point out that if the central tenent of your post is that Socialism/Chavez is failing/failed due to an economic recession, then Capitalism and democracy itself has also failed, numerous times.

    Also, rolling blackouts have happened in California.

    Chavez may or may not fail. Its currently not looking good. Socialism may or may not work. Currently it doesn't. But tamer forms of it clearly do. Its whetehr this version of 'what works' is preferrable to a capitalist/tamer capitalist version of 'what works'.

    I'd go for the capitalist one every day myself.
    The common denominator is central planning. Some people describe Scandinavian countries as socialist, and the system has had better success there from not being so centrally planning and allowing local small enterprises to go on their discovery of competition process without been stamped on the face by the state.
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  9. #19
    Tombo Tombo is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by antiestablishmentarian View Post
    Funny that people always seek to knock underdeveloped countries which try a different route, when in this country thousands had their electricity knocked off last year for inability to pay bills. Perhaps some here will remember the parable about having a splinter in your eye and berating your neighbour for the dust in their eye. As for Venezuela being a democracy, did Chavez or did he not respect the results of the last referendum where he lost? If memory serves me right I'm pretty sure he did. Perhaps the establishment here could learn a few lessons on democracy from Venezuela when it comes to respecting referendum results.
    No, he lost a referendum to allow himself unlimited terms in office in 2007 and than decided to give the people a second chance to get the correct answer in 2009.


    Here is some of his sporting and democratic rhetoric following the 2007 loss:

    Watch out, US lovers, celebrate. You have no dignity anyhow. Where could you have it? I recommend you to administer your victory wisely, because we will launch a renewed offensive for the great constitutional reform. ... You have a second offensive left for the constitutional reform. I cannot say that we did not make it."

    This was how he neatly phrased the repeat referendum question to allow him unlimited reelection:

    Do you approve the amendment of articles 160, 162, 174, 192 and 230 of the Constitution of the Republic, as processed by the National Assembly, which increases the political rights of the people, with the purpose of allowing any citizen incumbent in an elected office, to be nominated as candidate for the same office, for the period of time established constitutionally, his or her possible re-election depending exclusively on popular vote?
    No, I don't see where it says it is removing term limits for reelection either. But it must be a good thing because Chavez said it would "increase the political rights of the people"


    Chavez is lambasted because he is and most likely always was a simple gangster in the style of communists Guevera, Castro, Stalin, Mugabe etc.

    Venezuela is shaping as Zimbabwe MKII
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  10. #20
    NewRepublic NewRepublic is offline

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    What is it the second most likely country behind Greece to default? Ireland being 4th. We both have been destroyed by socialism (remember Bertie?).
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