Turkish secularists rock

[irishpeoplearewhingers]

I saw all those Turkish secularists protesting so that religion should be kept out of politics, and I couldn't help wondering if I was wrong about not wanting them in the EU. I have yet to say that I would welcome them with open arms, but it does raise a strategic question- if they are turned away from Europe, then to whom will they turn? Any opinions? Should we see them as kindred spirits who favour democracy and secularism? What about their dodgy human rights record? If we tell them to ************************ off, are we abandoning them to a more Islamic and less free future? Do we really only want one border between us and that troubled region? A tricky one.

[Jim84]

Iran seems to he emerging as the new power in the middle east

[irishpeoplearewhingers]

Right, so do we want an Iran-Turkey alliance on our doorsteps?

[ON THE ONE ROAD]

leinster hse renewed the offences against the state act last week and gave us a new justice bill takeing away the right to scilence and and increasseing to seven days the period of detention for garda questioning. maybe we shouldn't be to quick to preach to others about human rights

[Thac0man]

The Turks are, well the Turks. They are seperate and distinct from other Middle Eastern races, so foreign driven or led Islamic movements will ultimitly be defeated in favour of Turkish onces, and even those will be a minority as they cannot subvert the strong nationalist sentiment held by so many Turks. They would certainly never see eye to eye with countries like Iran.

I dont believe Turkey will ever join the EU, but may get some kind of permanent special status relationship. The majority of Turks (secular and non-secular) are set against joining the EU anyway, so the bargaining ultimitly may be for some other accomodation, one that suits Turkey.

Also we in the more Western part of the West have avoided dealing with Eastern European feelings towards the Turks. Their prolonged suffering under the Ottomans (and they were tyrannical and cruel) does not even show up on the Euro cultural radar yet. When it does, and it will when the new member states settle down, it will become obvious how the glorious achievments of the Ottomans are as much a conor stone of Turkish identity as their brutal excesses are to their European victims current and emerging identity. The whole dynamic between the EU and the Turks may change. I believe this alone makes Union with Turkey impossbile.

[smiffy]

Should we see them as kindred spirits who favour democracy and secularism?

I think you're conflating to different issues there. While it's important to highlighting the secularist basis of the Turkish state (indeed, I think in this case, the term 'militantly secularist' is actually justified), it's equally important to remember that secularism is not necessarily synonymous with democracy. The ruling Justice and Development party is better described as Islamic, rather than Islamist, so as not to confuse them with other groups which are strict, down-the-line proponents of Sharia as the only law of the state. It was also, and this is key, democratically elected to government.

What should be most worrying, for anyone who takes the principle of democracy seriously is less the election of an Islamic President and more any possible intervention on the part of the Army. From Friday's statement the message seems to be going that you can have democracy, up to a point. But a democracy which is constrained by the political beliefs of the army leadership isn't a democracy at all.

[Worldbystorm]

Indeed, I've seen a comparison, albeit a weak one between the Justice and Development party and the original Christian Democratic parties in Europe. So, relatively speaking they're mildly confessional (if that term is appropriate in the context of Islam), sort of kind of like some of our own home grown parties.

[irishpeoplearewhingers]

Should we see them as kindred spirits who favour democracy and secularism?

I think you're conflating to different issues there. While it's important to highlighting the secularist basis of the Turkish state (indeed, I think in this case, the term 'militantly secularist' is actually justified), it's equally important to remember that secularism is not necessarily synonymous with democracy. The ruling Justice and Development party is better described as Islamic, rather than Islamist, so as not to confuse them with other groups which are strict, down-the-line proponents of Sharia as the only law of the state. It was also, and this is key, democratically elected to government.

What should be most worrying, for anyone who takes the principle of democracy seriously is less the election of an Islamic President and more any possible intervention on the part of the Army. From Friday's statement the message seems to be going that you can have democracy, up to a point. But a democracy which is constrained by the political beliefs of the army leadership isn't a democracy at all.

Yeah...it's a bit of a mess. Would you have them in the EU?

[Jason]

Right, so do we want an Iran-Turkey alliance on our doorsteps?

well no turkey is Sunni muslim and iran is Shia so their is not much chance of that happenin.

I feel torn in this debate i greatly respect the secularists but what happens if the majority of the country wants islamic rule?

[Universal_001]

leinster hse renewed the offences against the state act last week and gave us a new justice bill takeing away the right to scilence and and increasseing to seven days the period of detention for garda questioning. maybe we shouldn't be to quick to preach to others about human rights

Really? including the internment provision?