Israeli court jails Arab man for pretending to be Jewish: 'rape by deception'.

[sondagefaux]

Israel recognises civil marriages, gay marriages, civil partnerships, gays adopting etc. etc. It's way ahead of Ireland in those respects

The question was: 'Can you get a civil marriage in Israel?'

There's a world of difference between recognising a civil marriage and being able to get a civil marriage.

Ireland has recognised divorces performed abroad for many years but you couldn't get a divorce in Ireland until fairly recently.

Israel recognises civil marriages performed abroad. Can you get a civil marriage in Israel?

[sondagefaux]

Putting the larger Middle East context aside, I cannot agree with you, L'Chaim.

I understand that the man pled guilty, hoping to avoid jail. But what I question is the threat of jail based on the evidence (or lack of it) that might have been presented at trial in the court of a civilized nation (such as Israel).

That is, what evidence would have supported the sentencing judge's assertion that the complainant would not have consented to have sex with the defendant, except on the condition that he was "a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship"? More to the point, what evidence would have supported a finding that the defendant should have understood that that she would not have consented, except on such an understanding?

Since he pled guilty to avoid trial (and the possibility of jail), I suppose we will never know the answers to those questions for sure -- unless the appeals court permits him to withdraw that plea and go to trial. Based on what we know so far, I hope the appeals court does so. And if it happens, I will wait to hear the critics of Israel applaud that result, and for someone to start a thread that will elicit over 400 comments.

Why would critics of Israel in this case applaud a decision to allow a man to go to trial on a charge of rape by deception in these circumstances?

Allowing someone to go to trial for rape by deception in the circumstances outlined in this case is no cause for celebration.

I've been on a night out with a friend whose Israeli partner finds this situation sad and incomprehensible.

[sondagefaux]

you didn't answer the question, could you and your boyfriend walk around town holdinng hands in a muslim country?

Men in Arab Muslim countries often walk around hand in hand.

It's a normal and common sign of friendship between heterosexual men in most Arab countries.

Homosexuality is not uncommon in Arab countries, Morocco being a prime example.

Homosexual sex is still illegal there but it is tolerated and in some cities, Tangiers being the main one, is hardly stigmatised at all.

In fact, in some respects, it's probably more liberal than Ireland was before the decriminalisation of homosexual sex in the 1990s.

[caulfield-the-yank]

Why would critics of Israel in this case applaud a decision to allow a man to go to trial on a charge of rape by deception in these circumstances?

Allowing someone to go to trial for rape by deception in the circumstances outlined in this case is no cause for celebration.

I've been on a night out with a friend whose Israeli partner finds this situation sad and incomprehensible.

Right, I see what you mean. I meant a decision to either reduce the sentence imposed (on the basis of the guilty plea), OR allow defendant to withdraw that plea and go to trial -- assuming the prosecutor chose to pursue it at that point.

[sondagefaux]

That's right. but they can have a civil marriage anywhere else they choose and that civil marriage is recognised by the Israeli state.

In other words, atheists and couples of different religions have to travel abroad to marry.

Even Ireland, with it's recognition of 'Our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ' in its constitution allows for civil, secular marriage within the state.

I'm proud to be Irish but I'm sometimes ashamed of the way the state acts.

I get the impression that you would defend Israel no matter what it did.

Why is this? Do you think it's a sign of weakness to admit that the state of Israel can act badly?

[sondagefaux]

Right, I see what you mean. I meant a decision to either reduce the sentence imposed (on the basis of the guilty plea), OR allow defendant to withdraw that plea and go to trial -- assuming the prosecutor chose to pursue it at that point.

The only decision I would applaud is a decision by Israel's Supreme Court to overturn this ridiculous law.

Israel does not have a formal written constitution but the jurisprudence of its Supreme Court, and its basic laws (as de facto constitutional provisions) form the basis of its constitutional law.

One of the most important basic laws is the Basic Law on Human Dignity and Liberty.

This states, inter alia, that 'Fundamental human rights in Israel are founded upon recognition of the value of the human being, the sanctity of human life, and the principle that all persons are free' and that 'these rights shall be upheld in the spirit of the principles set forth in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel.'

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel states, inter alia, that

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

...

WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

Is the state of Israel genuinely living up to the principles set out in the Declaration?

Are complete equality of social and political rights, 'irrespective of religion, race or sex' being ensured?

Are the 'Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel' genuinely being given 'full and equal citizenship'?

Is Israel being 'faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations'?

Are the rights set out in the Basic Law being 'upheld in the spirit of the principles set forth in the Declaration'?

IMO, Israel has, for many years, being betraying the principles set out in the Declaration.

This court decision is simply the latest of those betrayals.

[sondagefaux]

You are still trying to wriggle out of the fact that this man pleaded guilty to rape by deception. He admitted his crime and all he can appeal now is the severity of the sentence, not the conviction of his crime. You're not even trying to compare like with like, you're just trying to argue the side of an admitted rapist.

I'm not wriggling out of anything.

A plea of guilty to an unjust charge is meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

Feel free to answer the questions I've put to you if you can ever overcome your moral cowardice.

[Libero]

I answered your questions. If any person deceives someone by undermining her right to decide what criteria she expects or wants before she has sex then they have a case to answer. No matter how you trick someone into having sex with you, that has to be answered if the tricked person makes a complaint. That's due process

"I answered your questions"

You've repeatedly dodged the question, put repeatedly by me and others, to show in what western, liberal country, in modern times, 'rape by deception' has ever been grounded on the religion or ethnicity of the accused.

You know full well that's what's at the heart of this controversy, not the concept of Israel having a general law of that type.

Ironically, you're proving the accusations made against Israeli society by endorsing the view of the 'victim' that the man's Arab ethnicity is a valid factor to ground the charge. And your general evasiveness doesn't help you convince anyone or make friends either.

Interista, I have puzzled over you attribution to me of a "faux naif" line. I do not understand it. Can you explain what you mean?

That's actually pretty funny.

[toughbutfair]

Men in Arab Muslim countries often walk around hand in hand.

It's a normal and common sign of friendship between heterosexual men in most Arab countries.

Homosexuality is not uncommon in Arab countries, Morocco being a prime example.

Homosexual sex is still illegal there but it is tolerated and in some cities, Tangiers being the main one, is hardly stigmatised at all.

In fact, in some respects, it's probably more liberal than Ireland was before the decriminalisation of homosexual sex in the 1990s.

okay holding hands was a bad example as I've seen muslim men do that (seems weird).

Would FT "hang out" in the gaza strip and kiss his boyfriend in public?

[myksav]

I think she was a gullible woman who was taken in by a smooth-tongued criminal who can deceive innocent victims. And he admitted to rape by deception in court. So he's the guilty one.

I think she was a woman of loose morals to go and have sex with a stranger she had just met. So much for her view of her own "sanctity of body and soul".

Given the fact that in the trial, that man knew he was going to be found guilty because of his religion, he had a "choice" of two guilty verdicts, rape (long prison sentence) or rape by deception (short sentence), some choice.