Irish Left and Israel/Palestine

[Interista]

(I think L'Chaim may have said he's left of centre)

He may very well be centre left - but in the US and/or Israeli context, not the European one.

Remember that the 'leftist' Israeli Labour party have been responsible for more 'settlement' building than the Likud. Also, US Democrats are even further up Israel's behind than the traditional (as opposed to neo-con or far right Xtain) US right.

[Thranduil]

It's not an issue of left or right it's basically an issue of decency, either you support racial supremacism or not. The Israelis may appear to have the form of being anti-Nazi because they are Jews and there is an association with events of 70 years ago but it stands to reason that if it walks/talks like a Nazi and also acts like one - it's a Nazi. There is a commitment to judge by action not label.

Even rightwingers should be outraged as Palestinians have their 'property rights' ignored or overruled on a day by day basis... ie there is massive involvement of the Israeli 'state' in infringing the personal and economic liberties of Palestinian populations, whether by taking things over or destroying them as the Israelis methodically destroy basic amentities and any source of economic activity whenever they attack Gaza. It is possible to see it that way if you don't want to see the human side of the equation, it's just wrong left or right.

The main reason is that the US backs Israel. If the US backed the Arabs, they would be waving The Star of David flag.

The US plays no part in the EU debate, so it doesn't interest them

The US does back Arabs, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Jordan, New Iraqi 'leaders'... etc. In the region the Palestinians have no friends, the Egyptians help the Israelis to starve them, even the Iranians will really only use them in the end. What the Palestinians are faced with is trying to survive a regional nuclear superpower which wants them gone from their land and they are trying to survive it alone, it's a real David and Goliath situation, their struggle is heroic by virtue of the sheer scale of what they are up against and also by the injustices they have openly faced without much support from anybody in the so-called international community.

[Shirley Temple Mount]

And how does it reconcile its opposition to the Israeli settlements with its support for mass-immigration into Ireland and the EU?

LOL

How do you reconcile getting up in the morning with the price of a cup of tea ?

[Interista]

It's also worth pointing out that in the early days of the Israeli state, support for Israel was for the most part, a left-wing thing. Many people who are now stern critics of Israel were once quite enamoured of it. Noam Chomsky is a case in point.

[loaf]

I do see your point in terms of nationalism, but ultimately I think you present a false either / or choice.

This does not have to be a binary choice between support for what the Isreali state does or support for Palestinian Nationalists. It's a bit like Bush's "You are either with us or against us" statement after 9/11. It is an ideological question, and it is perfectly legitimate to reject both positions.

For me, the Gaza situation is about the strong dominating the weak, the rich not taking responsibility for the poor (and the inevitable segregation and discrimination that goes with that).

[Shirley Temple Mount]

Is it OK if the Irish left Hive mind brings to your attention the fact that teaching Human Rights to Children is not allowed in Israel ?
Israeli education ministry censors Universal Declaration of Human Rights


Would it be OK to mention such a thing if it were China ? Ohh.. i'm sure you could live with that.

It's becoming par for the course for people in Ireland, who harbour an irrational hatred for Palestinians and Arabs or Muslims in general, to use the Irish left as an excuse to ignore Israel fascism in the Middle East.

[cHeal]

I'd consider myself left, any that recognize me from my posting would likely agree.

I despise Israel because they are getting a get out of Jail free card at every corner. When it comes to defense, war crimes and human rights. That's about the size of it. Israel exists, it will only not exist if it is blown up and I don't want that so I'm happy for Israel to exist, and I am happy for them to defend themselves against attack. I am not happy for them to use a few puny homemade bombs, resulting in minimal deaths as a justification for a large scale bombing campaign. They have made ZERO effects to resolve the Israel/palestine issue in the past few decades and so deserve to find themselves under threat but that threat simply is not nearly enough to justify the response that comes. They are responsible for a number of incidents I believe adequately fall under war crimes but they are protected by one of the only other western nations which shares this accolade. Give Hamas some white phosphorous, some cluster bombs, bunker busters, tanks and aircraft and they might be able fight the Israeli regime on a par. As it stands the best they can do is homemade rockets which are ultimately ineffective. but what can they do, should they agree to die quietly in the night?

But apart from that I do in general take a more understanding approach toward terrorism as I see it as a choice forced on the weak when they must fight the powerful.

I oppose mass immigration.

I largely oppose the further integration of this country and others into the EU but I am still hopeful that the EU as an institution can grow into something other than a superstate.

I am more sympathetic toward socialist policies than capitalist policies but more and more I find myself a pragmatist.

[jcdf]

It's also worth pointing out that in the early days of the Israeli state, support for Israel was for the most part, a left-wing thing. Many people who are now stern critics of Israel were once quite enamoured of it. Noam Chomsky is a case in point.

I am not that old but if I lived in that time I am pretty sure that after some careful consideration I would not have been enamoured with it.

For me, the Gaza situation is about the strong dominating the weak, the rich not taking responsibility for the poor (and the inevitable segregation and discrimination that goes with that).

So this is all a social issue for you.

Very simplistic viewpoint! There is a core of truth to it though. This is not something unique to Gaza or Palestine by any measure.

Unfortunately the specific politics of that region are entirely unique creating a situation in which there can be no winner or loser. The Palestinians are caught in the middle like a piece of driftwood stuck in the centre of a whirlpool. The current completely out of their control.

The rest of the world for the most part only care about the 50% global oil reserves and keeping the price low and the flow constant and steady. This means two things, no major wars can be allowed that would interrupt the flow and secondly the locals cannot be allowed to form into a unified cohesive block that would be able to dictate oil prices.

The Palestinians are being used in a very cruel game. On one side is the Israelis that seem to have deluded themselves into believing that ancient prophecies foretelling the rise of an ancient mystical kingdom gives them the right to do as they please to whom ever they please without consequence. On the other are the Arabs and their sycophant rulers that use the Palestinian issue like a red rag waved in front of bull. One of the greatest lies of modern times is this notion that if the Palestinian issue is solved the Muslim World will be healed. A peaceful end to the Palestinian issue would be the beginning of the end for the current administrations in that part of the world.

The region is kept in paralysis.

Is it OK if the Irish left Hive mind brings to your attention the fact that teaching Human Rights to Children is not allowed in Israel ?
Israeli education ministry censors Universal Declaration of Human Rights


Would it be OK to mention such a thing if it were China ? Ohh.. i'm sure you could live with that.

It's becoming par for the course for people in Ireland, who harbour an irrational hatred for Palestinians and Arabs or Muslims in general, to use the Irish left as an excuse to ignore Israel fascism in the Middle East.

Here are the two human rights articles the Israels do not like:

"Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution." (Article 14)

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." (Article 18)

I do not see why they dislike Article 14 since their country was built on it, with all the immigration. Also Palestinians can use it to emigrate.

I can understand Article 18 them not wanting Muslims around.

[Design for Life]

I would like to take this opportunity to put a question to the Irish Left. I find it almost impossible to agree with them on any issue - but this is an exception. I support their stance in favour of an end to the occupation of the Palestinians, an end to settlement-building, and in some cases for sanctions against Israel e.g. SF's calls for the expulsion of the Israeli Ambassador. Well and good.

Here is what bemuses me. How does the Irish Left reconcile it's support for Palestinian nationalists seeking self-determination on the one hand, with its opposition to nationalism within Ireland and the EU? And how does it reconcile its opposition to the Israeli settlements with its support for mass-immigration into Ireland and the EU?

Hang on, there is no Irish left!

That aside, Ireland was once occupied by a foriegn invader and had its nationalism supressed et cetera et cetera....


What kind of left are you thinking of FT? Is there a particular person, party, group you have in mind that have expressed an opinion about Palestine?

[FutureTaoiseach]

Hang on, there is no Irish left!
That aside, Ireland was once occupied by a foriegn invader and had its nationalism supressed et cetera et cetera....


What kind of left are you thinking of FT? Is there a particular person, party, group you have in mind that have expressed an opinion about Palestine?

Labour and SF for example. During the Euro election campaign for example, Pronsias de Rossa accused Libertas of "fascism" for calling for tighter immigration controls. I reject out of hand the thesis that if you want tighter immigration-controls, that makes you a fascist. It is news to me that Hitler and Mussolini came to power because of immigration. Nonsense in fact.

Meanwhile, he condemns Israel's "settlement colonies".

In line, apparently, with the principle of mutual reliance and recognition of each other’s laws in international law, one state party to an international treaty will normally rely on the other's domestic legal provisions for implementation. However, in view of the above, and as Israel's laws recognise as legal the settlement colonies in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, which are regarded as illegal under International law, surely this agreement should never have been made in the first place?
Some progress has now been made following the decision of the ECJ in the BRITA case (no. C-386/08), which has established that goods from the illegal settlements cannot be passed off as ‘Israeli’ goods and therefore do not qualify for preferential treatment by the EU. Israel must now provide, and Member States must insist upon, documentation from Israel establishing that the goods being imported into Europe do not originate in the Settlement Colonies.

This, however, is only part of the Story. Israel’s general disregard of Human rights in its treatment of Palestinians in the West bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip requires that the Association Agreement be suspended until Israel changes its policies. This would not prevent Israel from exporting to Europe, but it would eliminate the special preferences they currently enjoy on the €13bn worth of exports sold into Europe’s Member States (€100m into Ireland).

So in summary: the Irish Left condemn immigration to other countries, while condemning calls for restrictions on it into this country. More inconsistency.

Another element in this: implicit in the Left's (correct) objections to the Israeli settlements is the fact that the are designed to change the demographics in such a manner as to make transfer of the areas occupied to a Palestinian state impossible. Yet - in an apparently contradictory manner - they appear oblivious to potential future questions of self-determination for ethnic-minorities that migrate to Ireland. I would be less concerned about this were the Left to drop multiculturalism in favour of assimilationism as a mechanism for the integration of immigrants. But they doggedly insist on not doing this. The longterm consequences can be seen in France, the UK and Holland if this policy is not reversed by the ruling elites, in the context of continuing mass-immigration.

To coin a phrase: the Left's prescription is "Nationalism for the Poor - Multiculturalism for the Rich".