Petraeus:Israeli intransigence could cost American lives

[FutureTaoiseach]

Here’s a better idea, if Israel stopped using phosphorous bombs on civilians and stopped deliberately murdering Palestinian children they would not be despised as a murderous monstrous rogue state by all decent people.

Indeed. It is a Zionist version of Mengelism.

[Nodin]

And not a single letter of that contradicts a word I've said. I'm sorry, Israeli official says unflattering and cynical things does not an argument make, at least not in this context.

...you mean the context of it leaving you without a leg to stand on. The facts are that it was - in brutal terms - uneconomic to have suppress that many Palestinians for so few settlers. Thus, by withdrawing but maintaining the borders, a burden was dropped, resources freed, the Palestinians left wrong footed - all in all it was clever thinking, from a man not known for his subtlety.

[Nodin]

Same as everything from you .. complete rubbish!

Ariel Sharon's plan to disengage from Gaza was a matter of demographics and settlement management. this from his top aide, Weisglass, about the reason for the plan.

Palestinian terrorism must end before a political process leading to a Palestinian state begins. Otherwise, the result would be a Palestinian state with terrorism. ... The Gaza withdrawal would allow Israel to delay negotiations, and a Palestinian state, until such time that their leadership abandons violence. The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process, and when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

I missed that earlier. My apologies for the duplication. The 'curse of st patrick' is lingering well into its second day.

[SAT]

I'd say SAT is still digging around looking for the name of the leader of the opposition in Syria.

The opposition in Syria consists of a loose affiliation of 9 separate parties plus some independents. Some extremist Islamist groups are banned as the government wishes to ensure the continuance of a secular society. You may find Al Qaeda are also banned from standing in elections in the US. Maybe you should at least consider reading something of substance for a change instead of Zionist comic books. Syria is by no means a democracy in the western sense but then again I never claimed it was especially as the ruling party has a minimum 51% controlling interest written into the constitution. I was simply correcting you on your false assertion that Bashar Assad was appointed for life and that he wasn't elected. You were wrong on both counts although I suspect if Assad upsets his military he will be president until the end of his suddenly curtailed life.

You are of course correct but no matter how often one rebuts this blood libel the likes of SAT simply aren't interested. Information which doesn't fit their model of how things are either gets twisted or dismissed.

You are of course lying your ass off.

Many of the Palestinians whose organs were harvested were not natives of Israel and were not people who died of natural causes in Israeli hospitals. Many were Palestinians shot dead by the IDF in the Palestinian Authority lands whose bodies were then transported to Israel to be stripped of their organs by the sick and twisted Zionist pigs. The Israeli government called it a disgusting crime and a sickening and repulsive allegation when they were denying it was happening so I wonder why it has stopped being disgusting and a crime now that they have admitted it? You yourself constantly refer to my bringing up this topic as a blood libel which once again shows your confused state of mind. A statement isn't libellous if it is true and Israel has admitted the allegations they originally called a blood libel are indeed true. Perhaps if you put your Zionist propaganda pamphlets in date sequence you won't look such a twat.

Btw Can you name a single other country in history who has taken the bodies of their fallen enemies and harvested their organs? Could you even imagine the uproar if the US or Britain were to strip dead Taliban fighters of their organs to satisfy their domestic organ transplant demand? Again your position on this seems totally confused. You appeared to think it was an atrocity that the Nazi's stripped their victims of gold fillings and yet see nothing wrong with Zionists stripping their victims of organs. I suspect were it Israel who were extracting gold fillings you would try to justify it as a sound environmental recycling practice.

You know it takes a particularly damaged mind to try and justify such an unbelievably disgusting crime.

[jcdf]

Debauched and murderous would surely describe the vermin who, having aimed their rockets at purely civilian targets hit the jackpot today when they ended the life of a Thai national.

These are such savages that they're actually fighting over who gets the "credit" for the hit. I suppose this isn't to be wondered at as the memory of those, oh so innocent, Gazans dancing and celebrating in the streets on 9/11 is still fresh in the mind.

It is not so much the physical damage done by the rockets but the psychological conditions it creates that are unacceptable. A functioning western state requires a degree of peace and stability in order for development and investment to take place.

Let me give a hypothetical. If the Northern Irish were building crud but workable rockets that when fired from county Armagh or Down had just enough range to hit Northern Dublin 40-50 miles. These rockets were not particularly powerful; they could blow up a house or a car or maybe burn a warehouse to the ground. The Northern Irish every day fired a few of these rockets into the south mostly aimed at Dublin. The vast majority just crash into fields, occasionally they hit a house or other building, rarely they hit a vehicle and sometimes a few people get killed.

Now let me ask you would you invest North of the Liffey? Would you buy a house or open a business? Would you fly in and out of Dublin airport even with the small risk that a rocket might the terminal building or a plane? I wouldn't.

PS - I agree with mr le Fanu about one thing: the Arab states.They really couldn't care less about Palestine,too busy creaming it off.Or Islam for that matter,judging by the number of Gulfies idling on their yachts in Puerto Banus at Ramadan.They could easily double the size of Gaza just by buying a tiny sliver of Egypt.They could lease it for a thousand years even.That might take some of the pressure off Israel?

You get the feeling ,though,lots of states (and corporations?) have an interest in this conflict going on and on.

In theory when dealing with rational entities this should be the case. But we are not! If the state of Israel had been established on a similar sized (very small) chunk of land on the Libyan coast the end result would have been exactly the same as it is today.

The opposition in Syria consists of a loose affiliation of 9 separate parties plus some independents. Some extremist Islamist groups are banned as the government wishes to ensure the continuance of a secular society. You may find Al Qaeda are also banned from standing in elections in the US. Maybe you should at least consider reading something of substance for a change instead of Zionist comic books.

You are of course lying your ass off.

The Palestinians whose organs were harvested were not natives of Israel and were not people who died of natural causes in Israeli hospitals. Many were Palestinians shot dead by the IDF in the Palestinian Authority lands whose bodies were then taken to Israel to be stripped of their organs by the sick and twisted Zionist pigs.

Can you name a single other country in history who has taken the bodies of their fallen enemies and harvested their organs? Could you even imagine the uproar if the US or Britain were to strip dead Taliban fighters of their organs to satisfy their domestic organ transplant demand?

It takes a particularly damaged mind to try and justify such an unbelievably disgusting crime.

Many Israelis organs were harvested too! You keep failing to mention this, which negates the purely racist aspect from your argument. It is simple profiteering and taking advantage of useful opportunities. With an aging global population demand of organs is going to keep climbing.

As for other countries in "history" harvesting the organs of their fallen enemies, the technology that allows this is relatively recent and this fact largely negates your point. Fro what I have heard this practice occurs in many countries like China and North Korean.

Would there be an uproar if the US and Britain were to strip the dead Taliban fighters of their organs, I would imagine there wouldn't. It would be impractical for NATO Afghans forces to carry the equipment and expertise to harvest organs from dead combatants and transport them for domestic transplant demand. So it does not happen.

[JSLeFanu]

The opposition in Syria consists of a loose affiliation of 9 separate parties plus some independents. Some extremist Islamist groups are banned as the government wishes to ensure the continuance of a secular society.

Hi there SAT, delighted to have you back. Looks like you've come up empty handed, doesn't it? Let me remind you of the question again: "Can you, seeing as you're so well read and all, please tell me who is the leader of the opposition in Syria? (bonus points for telling me which prison he's incarcerated in)"

Still waiting SAT.

I must be honest here, I feel like a right old bully. If you like you can just admit that you were ****************************************ting and that it's a "fair cop" and all that. Or let me put it another way then: I don't need you to answer because you've put yourself in an impossible position. You can fess up and look a fool or you can continue with your spoofery and remove any lingering doubt.

You may find Al Qaeda are also banned from standing in elections in the US. Maybe you should at least consider reading something of substance for a change instead of Zionist comic books.

Really SAT? I musta missed out on those Al Qaeda primaries in the country's which value secularism less than Syria, so tell me again please SAT, when was the last time, and place, Al Qaeda ran candidates in elections. I'll accept answers in the following categories: Presidential, Parliamentary or Local Government.

I'm delighted you're such an avaricious reader, so am I, although I do my best to concentrate on the type of material which doesn't lead to my revealing myself as a pig ignorant imbecile on internet forums.

You are of course lying your ass off.

Oh SAT, wouldn't it be a fine thing indeed if you were able to craft an argument which made me feel the remotest need to lie about anything. Anyway, as I'll demonstrate below, even the original authors of this accusation have been forced to eat their won $hite and withdraw their libel. Catch you after the bump.

The Palestinians whose organs were harvested were not natives of Israel and were not people who died of natural causes in Israeli hospitals. Many were Palestinians shot dead by the IDF in the Palestinian Authority lands whose bodies were then transported to Israel to be stripped of their organs by the sick and twisted Zionist pigs. The Israeli government called it a disgusting crime and a sickening and repulsive allegation when they were denying it was happening so I wonder why it has stopped being disgusting and a crime now that they have admitted it? You yourself constantly refer to my bringing up this topic as a blood libel which once again shows your confused state of mind. A statement isn't libellous if it is true and Israel has admitted the allegations they originally called a blood libel are indeed true. Perhaps if you put your Zionist propaganda pamphlets in date sequence you won't look such a twat.

In sequence:

You continue to accuse the jews with your blood libel, I'm now going to link you to the page of the Guardian where they correct their original incredibly misleading headline (although the Guardian have a lot of "previous" in this area) which was the one to give this story legs in the first place:

Corrections and clarifications | From the Guardian | The Guardian

Corrections and clarifications
We should not have put the headline "Israel admits harvesting Palestinian organs" on a story about an admission, by the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, that during the 1990s specialists at the institute harvested organs from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers without getting permission from the families of the deceased (21 December, page 15). That headline did not match the article, which made clear that the organs were not taken only from Palestinians. This was a serious editing error and the headline has been changed online to reflect the text of the story written by the reporter.

So SAT the Guardian has admitted its, ahem, error, you could too if you wanted to? Wouldn't it be better not to spread a blood libel which its originators disowned almost as soon as the ink was dry. You are of course perfectly free to continue repeating this, you'll probably find plenty of chippy shouldered credulous anti-Semites who'll be prepared to do what you're doing now ie. propagate the old blood libel. Of course most grown-ups will dismiss them as anti-Semitic vermin but hey, if that's how they roll.

Thanks for calling me a "twat", I'll add that to "moron" and all the other terms of personal abuse you've already hurled in my direction. Btw, I also particularly enjoy when you use terms such as "sick and twisted Zionist pigs", so enjoyable because I know you're busting a hernia trying to suppress your little urge to use the 'J" word. Comic gold SAT.

Anyway, that's enough for one night methinks but remember you've got some homework still to catch up on here's another gentle reminder: SAT [I]"Can you, seeing as you're so well read and all, please tell me who is the leader of the opposition in Syria? (bonus points for telling me which prison he's incarcerated in)"

Don't you think it odd that none of your fellow travelers on this thread haven't jumped in to lend a hand on this one? Do they know something you don't? Do they know what even the most roaringly ignorant are expected to know before posting anything about the middle east?

Anyway, for the general gaiety of the nation, I present to you the post that's left SAT squirming on his very own giant hook, enjoy:

He was elected you dope. There is a presidential election every 7 years. Go read a book and you might learn something. He is also the leader of one of the few secular states in the ME. I find educating people such as you to be tedious and ultimately pointless as you enjoy wrapping yourself in the cloak of bigotry far too much to allow inconvenient facts to sway you.

I promise you SAT I'm gonna take you up on your advice about this book readin malarky, my bedtime reading tonight is called "To Glorious Wise Leader Assad We Pledge Our Lives" An Illustrated History of Vibrant Syrian Democracy Publisher: Baath(am) House Press

[SAT]

JSLeFanu lets try one more time. If a country decides to harvest organs from it's own citizens who die of natural causes then that is between the government of that country and it's electorate. When a government decides to harvest the organs of foreign combatants (and innocent civilians) who their armed forces have killed that is a crime against humanity.

There are two types of fool. There are those who know they are fools and try to learn and there are those who are so stupid they don't even realise they are fools; Incredible as it seems I get the impression in your own mind you actually think you are clever. Or perhaps you are an 8 year old Zionist with learning difficulties.

You contradict yourself in every sentence and you seem incapable of reading much less understanding the answers to questions you pose. You ask who is the leader of the opposition and I tell you there are 9 opposition parties in Syria. You still want to know who the leader of the opposition is. It evidently hasn't occurred to you each party has it's own leader http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Syria%.....-a0163707261 You accuse me of a blood libel and then without a thought for your own inconsistency, in the same breath, you then quote a newspaper confirming what I said. I have already pointed out if something is true then it is not libellous but this obvious truth evidently went straight over your head. You ramble on incoherently about Al Qaeda in a fashion which suggests you totally and completely missed the rather simple point I was making of how extremist parties are banned from taking part in elections in Syria but that this is not unusual even in far less draconian states. Tell me who ties your laces for you in the morning?

Given the incredibly low level of your reading comprehension I really cannot be bothered to waste any more time on your sick Zionist fantasies. My parting advice is get professional help as a matter of urgency.

[Shirley Temple Mount]

I missed that earlier. My apologies for the duplication. The 'curse of st patrick' is lingering well into its second day.

The point is so important it couldn't be made too many times. Lets say it again,
in official terms , the Gaza withdrawal was intended to stall the peace process.

That's not a small point.

[Clanrickard]

The point is so important it couldn't be made too many times. Lets say it again,
in official terms , the Gaza withdrawal was intended to stall the peace process.

That's not a small point.

Here's another point. There is no peace process. There can be none until Palestinians accept Israel is there to stay and they renounce violence as a means to securing the whole of mandate Palestine as their won. They have not done so in fact they say one thing in public and another in private when they think nobody is listening.

[JSLeFanu]

The point is so important it couldn't be made too many times. Lets say it again,
in official terms , the Gaza withdrawal was intended to stall the peace process.
That's not a small point.

Your argument is based upon an individuals reading of Israelis "intentions." This reading could be true, it could be false or it could have elements of both in it. Once in the realms of intentions we're in muddy waters. You posted that in response this post of mine:

...It seems to me that if the Palestinians or the West wishes Israel to make any concessions of any kind in the future they are going to have to find a credible way of convincing Israeli people that the net result isn't going to be more bits of Israelis having to be hosed down shores by the fire brigade.

When Israel pulled out of Lebanon the "International Community" through the good offices of the UN were supposed to have supervised the disarming of Hizbollah, what did Israel get instead? It got the international community losing interest and Hizbollah arming itself to the teeth under the nose of the UN. Same when it withdrew from Gaza (for Hizbollah read HAMAS)....

As can be seen I'm not relying on the Gaza example to make my point, it was a tag on at the end, what about the rest of it? My thesis is that Israel gets rewarded for pushing back aggressively, whether that push back is an invasion of Lebanon or the erection of a perimeter fence or whatever there is always a serious benefit to the state. On the other hand when troops withdraw or land is handed back or sovereignty surrendered Israelis die. This is observable and verifiable, we don't need the theories of Israeli insiders or anyone else to see this is the case. It's possible to theorize about anything, you can frame the hand over in Gaza as an aggressive act if you wish. However the more you indulge in this type of theorizing the more it appears that you are interested only in jumping on theories which fit the pejorative view of Israel you wish other people to believe. Theories which frame every Israeli act as duplicitous or underhanded create a situation of lose/lose. The facts are that withdrawal from Gaza resulted in a step up of attacks on Israel, that's not theory, it's fact. Withdrawal from Lebanon resulted in increased attacks on Israel, not less. The incidence of suicide killings of Israelis has fallen off a cliff since the erection of the perimeter fence.

I know you think these are all bad things. You'll probably come back with an argument that the goal of all these actions is only to increase the suffering of the arabs. If you do you might be right or you might be wrong but, by way of a response to my argument, you'll be utterly beside the point. The point being that Israelis personal experience of suffering is linked to withdrawals and hand overs of territory. You can theorize till the cows come home but these people are made safer when Israel kicks back and more vulnerable when it does otherwise. Until such time as that changes you, and everyone else, can forget about serious "I jump first" concessions from Israel.

The Jews are terrified of the Arabs and history, for those with an interest in these things, tells us that they're right. This isn't a history of theories or interpretations it's a history of dates, times, body counts, a history of religious and ethnic libels a history of threatened annihilation and near misses. If you were an Israeli you'd feel the same. If you were an Israeli wouldn't you be terrified? You'd have access to broadcasts from Lebanon, The PA and Gaza where leaders, both secular and religious, refer to you in the most hateful terms, terms which are very old terms, terms which bear no connection to current disputes at all. Would this make you feel like relaxing your guard? Would it really?

More or less the same argument has been made, rather more succinctly than I have by Clanrickard here:

Here's another point. There is no peace process. There can be none until Palestinians accept Israel is there to stay and they renounce violence as a means to securing the whole of mandate Palestine as their won. They have not done so in fact they say one thing in public and another in private when they think nobody is listening.