Petraeus:Israeli intransigence could cost American lives

[JSLeFanu]

They took from everyone, the same way Ireland, England, Canada, France, Australia, etc did.

It was common practice for hospitals to do this all around the world.

Israel admits to organ thefts - **MIDEAST POLITICS** - tribe.net

Israel has admitted that it harvested organs from the dead bodies of Palestinians and Israelis in the 1990s, without permission from their families.

I'd say SAT is still digging around looking for the name of the leader of the opposition in Syria. You are of course correct but no matter how often one rebuts this blood libel the likes of SAT simply aren't interested. Information which doesn't fit their model of how things are either gets twisted or dismissed.

I think these guys touched bottom recently with their claims that the only reason the IDF sent a field hospital to Haiti was to harvest organs. It seems to me there is no low too low for them to stoop to. Anyone interested in the truth can quickly verify that most, if not all, this guff is arrant nonsense but that's not what matters. What matters is taking the lie and repeating it loudly and repeating it often. Most people don't go and check and thus a meme gets going and then self replicates. I can promise you that you'll be hearing that libel about the Israelis targeting Arabs for their organs for decades. No matter how often or how comprehensively you rebut this garbage up will pop another from the Arab fringe of useful idiots to repeat it again and again.

Still, fair play for having a go.

[Nodin]

I'd very much hope you're capable of distinguishing the difference between seeking to target a paramilitary organisation which embed themselves among civilians and simply targeting civilians for the hell of it..

I am, which is why I brought it up.

You still haven't mentioned settlements.......they haven't gone away, you know.

[JSLeFanu]

I am, which is why I brought it up.

You still haven't mentioned settlements.......they haven't gone away, you know.

Settlements in Gaza? Really. Wow. Well I applaud their bravery if they're still in Gaza.

[Nodin]

Settlements in Gaza? Really. Wow. Well I applaud their bravery if they're still in Gaza.

You know full well what I'm getting at.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's claim that he knew nothing of the announcement of 1,600 new units in Israel's colonization of Arab East Jerusalem, timed to smack with Biden's visit to Israel last week, isn't washing.

Petraeus: Israel's Intransigence Could Cost American Lives

[David L]

Hi Nodin, one lesson of the hasbara playbook is not to discuss settlements but instead to turn the discussion onto Hamas, so I think it'll be fairly fruitless to expect a response from jslefanu - but good luck trying.

On the US-Israel split. There's an interesting video here: GRITtv Blog Archive Max Blumenthal: Israel, the GOP, and the Coffee Party where Max Blumenthal takes apart the pretensions that there is actually a major split. As he said, if you even compare Obama with Bush senior, the differences are stark (and not in Obama's favour).

[JSLeFanu]

You know full well what I'm getting at.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's claim that he knew nothing of the announcement of 1,600 new units in Israel's colonization of Arab East Je

Petraeus: Israel's Intransigence Could Cost American Lives

Ah, so no settlements in GAZA then. That's what I thought, thanks.

That chimes with my memory of the IDF soldiers removing settlers from Gaza by force a few years ago.

Apparently a bunch of Europeans and Americans managed to convince the Israelis that if they shut these settlements in Gaza down then it would lead, if not directly to peace, then to a significant lessening of the conflict on that front thus "creating the conditions for a permanent peace."

And we all know how that ended, don't we?

One of the lessons of this conflict and one that Europeans simy don't wish to understand is that Israel suffers from more attacks, not less, everytime it's persuaded to give ground or make concessions.

It was persuaded to leave Lebanon, for the sake of peace, result, a relentless campaign of rocket fire from Lebanon targeting Israeli civilians which continued, and someone really does need to explain this to SAT, up until Israel took matters into it's own hands again in 2006.

Again western peaceniks persuaded Israel to leave GAZA for the sake of peace, result war. It took the form of increased hostility and increased rocket fire targeting Israeli civilians. And when did matters reach a head over there? Yup, in one, operation Cast Lead.

The problem for Israel is that when it gives ground it gets punished militarily. When it responds in kind it gets hammered by the media in the west. But as simple calculations go Israel must prioritize the safety of it's citizens. Jew, Christian, Druze, over it's desire for good PR. Israel cannot satisify it's critics in the west by anything it does short of ceasing to exist and, frankly, the Israelis aren't going to allow that to happen.

The fence issue and checkpoints are another case in point. Our own Foreign Minister, no less, constantly demands it's removal. He cites the hardships this causes the Arabs, he's right, it causes considerable hardship, this is undeniable. But this fence and the checkpoints have made Israelis much safer. The number and frequency of suicide attacks on Israelis has fallen off the charts since it's introduction. Israelis are safer, as are tourists and everyone else as a result of the fence. It would be great if it wasn't needed and everyone would benefit, Arabs especially. The Israelis would be insane to pay any heed to the belicose rants of a ************************* like Michael Martin who doesn't have the foggiest what it's like to be afraid to take a bus or go shopping or sit in a restaurant wondering whether the guy beside you is going to explode any minute.

It seems to me that if the Palestinians or the West wishes Israel to make any concessions of any kind in the future they are going to have to find a credible way of convincing Israeli people that the net result isn't going to be more bits of Israelis having to be hosed down shores by the fire brigade.

When Israel pulled out of Lebanon the "International Community" through the good offices of the UN were supposed to have supervised the disarming of Hizbollah, what did Israel get instead? It got the international community losing interest and Hizbollah arming itself to the teeth under the nose of the UN. Same when it withdrew from Gaza (for Hizbollah read HAMAS).

So, frankly, the lesson I'd take from this if I were Israeli is to forget about giving ground to anyone. The only rewards on offer to Israel are those it fights for. There's no international interest when Israel is attacked, no one cares anyway. Israel won't do this, I don't think, but frankly 'Id retake Gaza and control it. That's one handy way of removing the need for any further operation Cast Leads in the future.

There'd be storms of protest, but so what? Israel doesn't get any credit for the consessions it does make, these consessions always lead to more, and not less, Israeli deaths anyway so why bother?

Tell me Nodin, just as an aside and for the benefit of my new friend SAT, would you charachterize Syria as a democracy?

[JSLeFanu]

Hi Nodin, one lesson of the hasbara playbook is not to discuss settlements but instead to turn the discussion onto Hamas, so I think it'll be fairly fruitless to expect a response from jslefanu - but good luck trying.

.

Hasbara, wow, you do know all the lingo, don't you?

Tell me if all I'm about is "hasbara" what's your game? Do you go along with SAT in spreading the "blood libel"? Is that your hasbara? Is that what you're all about?

Btw, you really should wait for my replies before trying to second guess them, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself thank you very much.

You might notice I have no problem talking about settlements. I'm sure my opinions on this issue aren't shared by everyone who's broadly sympathetic to Israels plight but talking about them is something I'm perfectly delighted to do.

Settlements? They're a great idea as far as I'm concerned. They should carry on building them as there is no benefit to not building them. What material benefit has Israel spurned by building settlements? Obama's good will? LoL, they never had that to begin with so no loss there. Palestinian willingness to compromise? Sorry I musta missed that one too.

[macdarawhitfield]

Israel needs the West Bank ( and Golan Heights) to accommodate its millions of immigrants from the US,Europe and especially,Russia.


Bill Clinton was given an insight into the views of Russian Zionists by Natan Sharansky.

'They had come from the world's largest country to one of its smallest and didn't believe in making Israel smaller by giving back the West bank or the Golan.They also considered Syria no threat to Israel.If Syria attacked,the Isaelis would win easily.So why give up the Golan?'

You don't settle 500,000 of your citizens in a place if you intend to withdraw.Clinton was dealing with Barak ,the Labour leader.But it's as pointless to talk in these terms as to ask FF/FG to define their crucial differences.The Zionists have no intention of making peace.If the USA push them too far they could even start a nuclear war.A far bigger problem for the US than the bearded troglodytes of Tora Bora.

[Clanrickard]

Hasbara, wow, you do know all the lingo, don't you?

Tell me if all I'm about is "hasbara" what's your game? Do you go along with SAT in spreading the "blood libel"? Is that your hasbara? Is that what you're all about?

Btw, you really should wait for my replies before trying to second guess them, I'm quite capable of speaking for myself thank you very much.

You might notice I have no problem talking about settlements. I'm sure my opinions on this issue aren't shared by everyone who's broadly sympathetic to Israels plight but talking about them is something I'm perfectly delighted to do.

Settlements? They're a great idea as far as I'm concerned. They should carry on building them as there is no benefit to not building them. What material benefit has Israel spurned by building settlements? Obama's good will? LoL, they never had that to begin with so no loss there. Palestinian willingness to compromise? Sorry I musta missed that one too.

Bravo! Well said that man!

[macdarawhitfield]

PS - I agree with mr le Fanu about one thing: the Arab states.They really couldn't care less about Palestine,too busy creaming it off.Or Islam for that matter,judging by the number of Gulfies idling on their yachts in Puerto Banus at Ramadan.They could easily double the size of Gaza just by buying a tiny sliver of Egypt.They could lease it for a thousand years even.That might take some of the pressure off Israel?

You get the feeling ,though,lots of states (and corporations?) have an interest in this conflict going on and on.