Bolivarian socialism is murder. Literally.

[CookieMonster]

I just noticed this assertion on your part.

Now earlier you posted:

"Venevuela's rate bumped between a low of13 and a high of 22 in the ten years pre-Chavez. In 1999 it was 25 per hundred thousand. The lowest it has been since then is 33 and the highest 52."

So the rate, according to yourself, was 25 when Chavez came to power and since than has gone to 52. Please explain how this is "quadrupling" for it seems to me that if it had "quadrupled' it would now be around 100. I am presuming this is not something that you just threw out dishonestly.

**(Note to Lefanu. Please do not post any more on this thread as you are really contributing nothing intellectually to the topic)

Reuters AlertNet - Venezuela murder-rate quadrupled under Chavez -NGO

[CookieMonster]

Ah the old "shut up" response. The message board equivlent of closing down newspapers and pulling the plug on TV stations. How apt.

You're lucky he just wants you to shut up. Sean Penn wants to put you in jail.

[JSLeFanu]

You're lucky he just wants you to shut up. Sean Penn wants to put you in jail.

My response is: LOL. Insufficiently intellectual for my friend no doubt.

[Sam Lord]

Reuters AlertNet - Venezuela murder-rate quadrupled under Chavez -NGO

The headline seems to be the problem as the article appears to assert that the number of people murdered quadrupled whereas the headline (which you quoted) refers to the murder-rate quadrupling.


I'm interested now in the curiously named NGO, "The Venezuelan Observatory of Violence (OVV)". I wonder who is funding their research? Any ideas?

[derm0t]

Given what has transpired in Latin America over recent decades this could possible be the most intellectually dishonest OP ever to sully p.ie.

+1.

Classic example of selection bias/cherry picking.

Note that the OP failed to mention other countries in the region for a sample comparison over the same period. Take Belize, not exactly commie central:

Belize - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Belize is a parliamentary democracy, a Commonwealth realm, and therefore a member of the Commonwealth of Nations.

The structure of government is based on the British parliamentary system, and the legal system is modelled on the Common Law of England. The current head of state is Elizabeth II, Queen of Belize. Since the Queen primarily resides in the United Kingdom, she is represented in Belize by the Governor-General. However, the cabinet, led by the Prime Minister of Belize, who is head of government, acting as advisors to the Governor-General, in practice exercise executive authority. Cabinet ministers are members of the majority political party in parliament and usually hold elected seats within it concurrent with their cabinet positions.

And what's happened to the murder rate in this despotic US playground?

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2000: 16.3
2001: 24.9
2002: 33.1
2003: 24.9
2004: 28.7
2005: 30.0
2006: 33.0
2007: 30.8
2008: 33.4
2009: 33.4

That evil hag, the Queen of England, has much to answer for. The murder rate doubled! Will her reign of terror NEVER END?

Another US tourist haven, the Dominican Republic:

2000: 13.09
2001: 12.49
2002: 14.51
2003: 18.73
2004: 25.25
2005: 26.41
2006: 23.56

Another Central American nation that's seen a big increase in murder rates!

What about Honduras, currently ruled by a center right party (since 2005) - and with a selection of parties to choose from?

Honduras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Honduras has five registered political parties: National Party (Partido Nacional de Honduras: PNH); Liberal Party (Partido Liberal de Honduras: PLH); Social Democrats (Partido Innovación y Unidad-Social Demócrata: PINU-SD), Social Christians (Partido Demócrata-Cristiano de Honduras: DCH); and Democratic Unification (Partido Unificación Democrática: UD). PNH and PLH have ruled the country for decades. In the last years, Honduras has had five Liberal presidents: Roberto Suazo Córdova, José Azcona del Hoyo, Carlos Roberto Reina, Carlos Roberto Flores and Manuel Zelaya, and two Nationalists: Rafael Leonardo Callejas Romero and Ricardo Maduro. The elections have been full of controversies, including questions about whether Azcona was born in Spain, and whether Maduro should have been able to stand, given he was born in Panama.

2000: 50
2001: 54
2002: 56
2003: 34
2004: 32
2005: 35
2006: 43
2007: 50
2008: 58
2009: 58

Since 2003, a run-up from 34 murders (before the center right took power) to 58 in 2009. OR, if we take 2000 as the start, a slight increase in mayhem over 9 years. in either case, Venezuela lags the Honduran murder rate.

So why the focus by the OP on the Commies?

Again, see selection bias, cherry picking, etc.

Selection bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


[COLOR="Red"]F. Must try harder.[/COLOR]

[beamish2010]

I know Hugo Chavez is far from pefect,but he's hardly Robert Mugabe,but
if Chavez dose lose the plot,he will become a pariah like Robert Mugabe.

[beamish2010]

Hugo Chavez is far from perfect,but he's hardly Robert Mugabe,but
if Chavez loses the plot,he will become a pariah like Robert Mugabe.

[jcdf]

It is really tiring listening to some posters stuck in a cold war time loop. They judge events of that time by today’s standards and disregard the benefit of their own hindsight when opinionating on the decisions of the people of the time.

They keep cycling out the same old crowd from the cold war: General Pinochet of Chile and the juntas of Argentina, Nicaraguan Contras and Guatemala.

During the cold war the world was divided into two massive military blocks NATO and allies and the Soviet Block allies. Believed by many on both sides and neither that it was possible, perhaps even inevitable that these two blocks would end up in a fire fight i.e. WWIII. We may laugh at this now but to the people that lived in this time it was a very real possibility and one that heavily influenced decisions of the time.

For the governments and military people within these two blocks losing WWIII was not an option. So it should not come as any surprise that both sides strategically align themselves into the best possible situation on this global military field. South and Latin America was part of this battlefield and for the USA control of the panama canal and surrounding territories was vitally important so that they could quickly shift battle fleets between the Atlantic and the Pacific as they were needed. So they supported whatever regimes would be friendly or at least indifferent to them in those regions.

The fact that those regimes chose to murder and mutilate their fellow citizens says more about the prevailing cultural attitudes in those regions than about left/right politics it self.

I would now like to ask some of the posters on this thread a question: since the collapse of the soviet union and the end of the cold war how many violent conflicts have been started and how many South American countries have been invaded by the USA in the past two decades? Is that ZERO I hear!

As for the Crime in Mexico this is not kept secret, it is widely known and advertised. There have been many pieces in the western press about the Mexican drug gangs. I do not know how you can state that it is kept hidden because Mexico is a capitalist country.

Going back to the original post about the increase in murder rates in Venezuela. First of all the title is a bit unfair “Bolivarian socialism is murder. Literally” using shock tactics. There is nothing to indicate that Chavez is personally directing the murders of Venezuelans. However unless something has dramatically changed, murder is a crime, the worst of all crimes and it is the Venezuelan governments job to tackle and reduce it. If it has dramatically increased then that shows the Venezuelan government is lacking in it’s ability to enforce law and order in it’s own lands.

Six of the top twelve countries for homicides in the world are in this region Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela, Colombia, Belize and lets not forget Haiti as well with all it’s prisoners running loose. This cannot be placed solely down to politics or co-incidence. Perhaps these places all share a common cultural or maybe even genetic commonality that pre deposes them towards murder. Form the wikipedia website on homicide rates through the world a common theme can easily be discerned from the table of static’s. Those parts of the world that come top of the table for homicides per 100,000 of population are sub-Sahara Africa and South and Central America. It is worth noting that many parts of South and Central America have significant sub-Saharan African ethnic population groups. The more developed parts of South America with a lower homicide rate such Argentina, Chile and Uruguay has a much less significant sub-Saharan African populations.

Oh sorry , I assumed it was from the selling of oil and gas on the world markets and then using the profits to fund social programmes like free education and free health for the poor who previously had no access to such luxuries.lnkmIts a policy to be admired not to be criticised from the ususal neo liberal nuts.

The production of oil and gas requires investment. Lot of it! It is not like Beverly hill Billy’s where Grandpa knocks a pickaxe into the ground and oil come pouring out. In real life it does not work that way. Oil extraction requires loads of big heavy expensive equipment that needs constant maintenance, plenty of expert engineers and geologists that expect huge salaries or they go work somewhere else. Without constant reinvestment the oil wells will stop producing.

You know your cause is close to bust when the Hollywood 'elite' start backing you.....

Well put.

The OP equates Bolivarian socialism with murder when in fact most of the killing in Latin America has and continues to be done in capitalist countries .... often with state involvement and often with the full support of the USA. Just pointing this out.

Sam any country in the world can call it’s self pro-western or capitalist and not be so and even if it is, that does make it a developed country. As for having the full support of the USA that does really mean much either and I do not why you put some much behind it. Just because some one is willing to buy what you have to sell does not mean they support you.
Law and justice are integral parts of any functioning government. In many respects they are the corner stone that holds a society up. If Hugo Chavez is giving the law creation and enforcement short thrift then in my books that makes him a poor leader.

[Own Arris]

Homicides in Venezuela have quadrupled during President Hugo Chavez's 11 years in power, with two people murdered every hour, according to new figures from a non-governmental organization. The Venezuelan Observatory of Violence (OVV), whose data is widely followed in the absence of official statistics, said the South American nation has one of the highest crime rates on the continent, with 54 homicides per 100,000 citizens in 2009.

When Chavez came to power in 1999 there were 4,550 homicides whereas in 2009 there were 16,047, the OVV said.

Reuters AlertNet - Venezuela murder-rate quadrupled under Chavez -NGO

As usual he is blaming rich people and accusing his opposition (they still have that there?) of exaggerating the scale of the issue.

As Sam Lord has pointed out the headline for the newspaper article has got it wrong and exaggerated the scale of the issue, the murder rate actually doubled not quadrupled under Chavez. When you consider that the murder rate also more than doubled in the previous ten years (1988 -1998) before Chavez was even in power it makes the heading 'Bolivarian socialism is murder, Literally' seem rather silly and trite.


List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


List of countries by intentional homicide rate to 1999 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Chrisco]

The Columbian government supports the murder of trade unionists.

If you don't even know how to spell the name of the country in question I am not sure you are really in an authoritative position to discuss its politics.