Iceland's citizens to stiffen government's spine and stand up to bullies

[Thac0man]

The citizens of Iceland are likely to vote themselves a future tomorrow and in doing so may do the citizens of Ireland and of other countries a major favour.

Except those many many thousands of citizens, thousands of Irish citizens amongst them, who put their life savings into Icelandic banks that were guarenteed by the Icelandic government. How exactly are they being done a favour? Please explain that.

The high yield Icelandic banks offered were attractive to people of all back grounds, particularly the less well off. Those offers were only possible with the cooperation of the Icelandic government, who are the direct representitives of the Icelandic people. A people who now are disavowing any and all responsiblity for the actions authorised by their state which also profitted massively from the Ice save scheme.

The expected NO vote is not giving two fingers to the governments of the EU. That is only a perception the myopic would buy into. Those governments are representing the thousands of small investors and savers who stand to lose every penny they tried to save over years. It is those savers, who did not for the most part buy into the wreckless spending and credit culture of the Celtic Tiger who are set to suffer. So people should not be so hasty as to try and expropriote this Icelandic vote for short term political capiltal. Certainly there is no moral capital to be had either.

By the standards of what has gone on, why don't we allow our government to have an Irish private outfit set up a pyramid scheme to shaft the poor and middle class of Malta and Belgium out of their life savings, using our States good name and backing to make said scheme attractive? It would amount to the same thing.

All a NO vote will mean in the end is that those savers will have to find another way of bringing Iceland to account. Money does not dissapear. It will be the UK and Irish taxpayer who has to pick up the tab if Iceland will not honour its commitment. In short Iceland is telling savers that the party is over and they are keeping their money. A new low by any standard and worthy of a 3rd world kleptocrasy.

[FutureTaoiseach]

You can't just leave innocent depositors to go hang because the Icelandic Central Bank refused to live up to its responsibilities as regulator of Icesave's parent-company Lansbanki. On the other hand, if this frustrates the goal of EU membership of the politicians of that country - which polls consistently show the Icelandic people do not want (57% in latest poll) - then fair play to its people. I have no problem with Icelandic membership of the EU - it is a small wealthy country after all, meaning that the issues pertaining to the 2004-7 Enlargement do not follow. But you have to admire a plucky little country facing down the imperial powers in Brussels, Berlin and Paris.

[cHeal]

You would be one of the last people i would expect to see making the case for direct democracy Ibis, i am surprised given your pro-EU tendencies, the people can only be held accountable for what the Govt does to this degree in a direct democracy - where they can petition to have an issue brought up and put to a referendum... without this in a representative democracy the politicians from all sides can simply wall themselves off from the electorate and do what they wish.

In practice in most countries most voting peoples do not have this level of control over the issues for various reasons (and a common argument of those who advocate ceding more power to central authorities of various sorts and repres democracy is the preaching that these issues are very complex and are best left to the 'experts' like the financial regulators and so forth).

Absolutely. When people complained about the fact that Lisbon was too complicated a document for ordinary people to understand, ibis was one of many who laid out sprawling arguments why direct democracy was inappropriate for such complex matters, but now that it has all gone wrong, those same citizens who in his estimation should not be concerned with government workings were "asleep at the wheel"? No more than ourselves, people in Iceland should have had been more aware of the dangers they faced, but representative democracy is a very blunt instrument and provides it's people with very little control of economic management, beyond tax levels and work incentives.

I think ibis just hates the little people.

[BrendanGalway]

In practice in most countries most voting peoples do not have this level of control over the issues for various reasons (and a common argument of those who advocate ceding more power to central authorities of various sorts and repres democracy is the preaching that these issues are very complex and are best left to the 'experts' like the financial regulators and so forth).

Yes Indeed. This whole thing has blown one argument against Direct Democracy out of the water : that major decisions are best left to Informed Political Experts. Most folks would laugh out loud if you suggested that the Govt have the grey matter to clean up this mess without scuttling the nation.

Massive decisions that have such far-reaching consequences for the Population, such as the Icesave bailout or our own Nama, should be asked for the peoples approval via referendum. The idea that we should leave these kind of things to an organised Cohort of Vested sometimes clueless Interests belongs in the past.

[FakeViking]

YThe idea that we should leave these kind of things to an organised Cohort of Vested sometimes clueless Interests belongs in the past.

+1. Whenever I hear that your local man Frank Fahey (of Lost at Sea fame) defending the NAMA bailout, I am reminded that this guy is a property developer with declared portfolio like this back in '08.

4. Land ……………………… (l) 2 apts Castlerea, Co. Roscommon: letting; (2) Apartments 8A, 16 Eglington Court, Galway: letting; (3) House at Kilbeacanty, Gort, letting; (4) Apartment at Dun Aengus, New Docks, Galway: letting; (5) House at Dun na Coirbe, Galway: letting; (6) House at Rinawade Close, Leixlip: letting; (7) Shareholding in apartment at Gort na Coirbe, Galway; (8) Shareholding in extended family owned properties at Moydrum, Athlone: letting; (9) Shareholding in 4 Apts and Shop, Lower Gerald Street, Limerick: letting; (10) Shareholding in retail unit, two offices and warehouse at Crowe Street, Gort; (11) House at Jumeirah Estates, Dubai; (12) Dwelling house, The Grove, Crowe St, Gort, Co. Galway; (13) Shareholding in apartment at Tappen St, Boston, Massachusetts: shareholding in Fahey Higgins L.L.C Boston; (14) Five apartments owned in partnership at Rue Paul-Emile, Janson 1000, ten apartments owned in partnership at Rue du Sceptre 1015, Brussels; (15) Apartment at Cathedral Place, Limerick: letting; (16) House at Villefranche, France; (17) Deposit paid and contract signed on property at Porto De Mos, deposit paid on property at Alcantarillha, Portugal; (18) Apartment at Irishtown, Dublin.

Register of Members Interests - Dáil Eireann 1 January 2008 to 31 December 2008 - Tithe an Oireachtais

I wonder how the house in Dubai is doing now, is the AG going to drop in on his junket there next week?

[He3]

Yes Indeed. This whole thing has blown one argument against Direct Democracy out of the water : that major decisions are best left to Informed Political Experts. Most folks would laugh out loud if you suggested that the Govt have the grey matter to clean up this mess without scuttling the nation.

Massive decisions that have such far-reaching consequences for the Population, such as the Icesave bailout or our own Nama, should be asked for the peoples approval via referendum. The idea that we should leave these kind of things to an organised Cohort of Vested sometimes clueless Interests belongs in the past.

It may belong in the past but it operates in the present.

[hmmm]

Massive decisions that have such far-reaching consequences for the Population, such as the Icesave bailout or our own Nama, should be asked for the peoples approval via referendum. The idea that we should leave these kind of things to an organised Cohort of Vested sometimes clueless Interests belongs in the past.

How do you expect to be able to put a question on complex technical matters to a plebescite? In reality it will be impossible, without resorting to dumbing it down to a level which is akin to voting on You're a Star. Not only will we see political gridlock, decisions will be based on who shouts loudest or who can instil the most fear into a population.

It's our own fault we elect politicians who we entrust with making these decisions and who do so in an incompetent fashion. This organised cohort of interests are voted in by our own democratic choice.

[joel]

Except those many many thousands of citizens, thousands of Irish citizens amongst them, who put their life savings into Icelandic banks that were guarenteed by the Icelandic government. How exactly are they being done a favour? Please explain that.

The high yield Icelandic banks offered were attractive to people of all back grounds, particularly the less well off. Those offers were only possible with the cooperation of the Icelandic government, who are the direct representitives of the Icelandic people. A people who now are disavowing any and all responsiblity for the actions authorised by their state which also profitted massively from the Ice save scheme.

The expected NO vote is not giving two fingers to the governments of the EU. That is only a perception the myopic would buy into. Those governments are representing the thousands of small investors and savers who stand to lose every penny they tried to save over years. It is those savers, who did not for the most part buy into the wreckless spending and credit culture of the Celtic Tiger who are set to suffer. So people should not be so hasty as to try and expropriote this Icelandic vote for short term political capiltal. Certainly there is no moral capital to be had either.

By the standards of what has gone on, why don't we allow our government to have an Irish private outfit set up a pyramid scheme to shaft the poor and middle class of Malta and Belgium out of their life savings, using our States good name and backing to make said scheme attractive? It would amount to the same thing.

All a NO vote will mean in the end is that those savers will have to find another way of bringing Iceland to account. Money does not dissapear. It will be the UK and Irish taxpayer who has to pick up the tab if Iceland will not honour its commitment. In short Iceland is telling savers that the party is over and they are keeping their money. A new low by any standard and worthy of a 3rd world kleptocrasy.

Did Iceland guarantee all savings were safe? Doubt it. These were public companies - Limited liability - limited to shareholders capital.

[Supermanpolitician]

Future Consequence of Iceland's action.

Will you loan money to Iceland?
No.
Why not?
Because they renege on their debts.

[kerdasi amaq]

Except those many many thousands of citizens, thousands of Irish citizens amongst them, who put their life savings into Icelandic banks that were guaranteed by the Icelandic government. How exactly are they being done a favour? Please explain that.

They may give the clowns who caused our crisis the right idea to solve it. What people may have lost in Iceland, is peanuts compared to what NAMA will cost them, and what the loss of economic activity is costing them. I would consider that a great favour.

I was thinking of opening an Icelandic bank account, but I didn't, because I thought it was to good to be true.:mrgreen:

A people who now are disavowing any and all responsibility for the actions authorised by their state which also profited massively from the Ice save scheme.

The Icelandic banks were private banks, run by morally unsound people. Those bankers should take the fall. The Icelandic People are actually doing, the foreigners a favour by agreeing to take on those debts. What is at stake is under what terms that those debts will be repaid. They have to ensure that it is not done in a socially destructive manner and that it is based on their capacity to pay.

The expected NO vote is not giving two fingers to the governments of the EU. ...Those governments are representing the thousands of small investors and savers who stand to lose every penny they tried to save over years. It is those savers, who did not for the most part buy into the reckless spending and credit culture of the Celtic Tiger who are set to suffer. So people should not be so hasty as to try and expropriate[???...exploit?] this Icelandic vote for short term political capital. Certainly there is no moral capital to be had either.

No, they're not. They don't give a toss about small savers. It's the London financiers who're being protected and "common purpose" Labour Councils money.

By the standards of what has gone on, why don't we allow our government to have an Irish private outfit set up a pyramid scheme to shaft the poor and middle class of Malta and Belgium out of their life savings, using our States good name and backing to make said scheme attractive? It would amount to the same thing.

Too late for that. We did have the "Irish Sweepstakes" lottery scandal.

All a NO vote will mean in the end is that those savers will have to find another way of bringing Iceland to account. Money does not disappear. It will be the UK and Irish taxpayer who has to pick up the tab if Iceland will not honour its commitment.

I don't care a toss about the UK taxpayers. I would love to see Gordon Brown get a big black eye from Iceland. He deserves it.

In short Iceland is telling savers that the party is over and they are keeping their money. A new low by any standard and worthy of a 3rd world kleptocracy.

The money isn't in Iceland. If they want their money back they'll have to look for it in Switzerland or maybe the near east.