'Iran will deliver telling blow to global powers on Feb. 11'

[Mouroux]

We really have almost no concept of the Islamic mindset, Islamic culture or modern Islamic history... we also have almost no concept of how it is that Islam truly sees the west...

The reference to materialism in the speech is taken by us to refer to something vague like mini-skirts and Pepsi-Co. Not so...

Materialism can be understood as a central tenet of Communism. Have a look at this documentary, which was funded by the UEN Group in the European Parliament:

The Soviet Story - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trailer:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_3RIuw6CAI"]YouTube- The trailer for the new movie "Soviet Story"[/ame]

The entire film can be found on the various video and file sharing sites/servers.

[jcdf]

Iran does not have ICBM's and even if it did wouldn't use them against the USA. More convincing is the stories that this 'Shield' was a bullying strongarm tactic into forcing Russia to 'desist' in any assistance to Iran. The only way Iran can hit the USA or UK with missiles is by launching from a civilian cargo ship.

Iran probably does not have ICBM's! But it is trying to make them. Iran frequently tests new missiles for the cameras. Launching missiles from an ocean platform requires additional know-how and technologies that Iran would have to develop. If Iran did develop a missile capable of hitting the USA and a nuclear devise, even though they would probably never physically use either of them, they could use them as intimidation tool in international diplomacy. Thus giving them more leverage in diplomatic affairs.

A small missile shield in Eastern Europe is a pretty pathetic attempt at bullying. How would a missile shield prevent Russia selling the Iranians weapons exactly? There is no strategic alliance or anything between to two places, just business transactions; the Iranians buy the Russians weapons.

But for Russia surely it is cheaper to just build a few extra nukes for every new upgrade of the shield.... ie if it came down to a situation in which Russia and the US were in an arms race, US upgrading the shield and Russia building more nukes to compensate - at present levels of technology i believe Russia would win that race... though i could be wrong, maybe Russia doesn't want the technology near it in any form because of the possibility of 'surprising' developments in the capability of the technology itself.

New Technologies are going to be developed and move around the world regardless of what anyone wants. As for 'surprising' developments in the capability of this missile shield technology, there won't be any; in a few decades it will just be another obsolete piece of military junk. Infinitely cheaper more reliable ways of doing the same thing will have been developed and adopted.

[Mouroux]

We really have almost no concept of the Islamic mindset, Islamic culture or modern Islamic history... we also have almost no concept of how it is that Islam truly sees the west...

The reference to materialism in the speech is taken by us to refer to something vague like mini-skirts and Pepsi-Co. Not so...

Materialism can be understood as a central tenet of Communism. Have a look at this documentary, which was funded by the UEN Group in the European Parliament:

The Soviet Story - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trailer:

YouTube- The trailer for the new movie "Soviet Story"

The entire film can be found on the various video and file sharing sites/servers.

Here is the original version -there seems to be a lot of rehashing/copyright issues on youtube:

Wisevid

[jcdf]

So you are saying that modern Islamic World thinks we are all Communists? That we wish to expunge class and make them all buy Pepsi-Cola?

When you say we, what exactly do you mean, who is we?

Could you clarify your point Mouroux?

[cyberianpan]

When the gibberatic Ahmadinejad promised this I wasn't so concerned... now I am

Iran warns it will 'punch' the West on Islamic revolution anniversary - Telegraph
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, has said that the country was set to deliver a "punch" that will stun world powers during this week's 31st anniversary of the Islamic revolution.

Now either

1) Ahmadinejad is pregnant with Ali Khamenei's baby
0r
2) Nuclear
Or
3) Dragons... contact with ET ... ?

cYp

[sarahj]

So you are saying that modern Islamic World thinks we are all Communists? That we wish to expunge class and make them all buy Pepsi-Cola?

When you say we, what exactly do you mean, who is we?

Could you clarify your point Mouroux?

I reckon he means materialism as in a focus on materials, which both capitalism and Marxism have in common. Not all communists are materialists, but most Marxists are. I think (some of) the Islamic world sees this focus as being misplaced and that we should think less about materials and more about the more important things, like spirituality and community (and I suppose, serving god in their case). Funnily enough I agree with him in this analysis.

[Border-Rat]

Iran probably does not have ICBM's!

There is no probably about it.

But it is trying to make them. Iran frequently tests new missiles for the cameras. Launching missiles from an ocean platform requires additional know-how and technologies that Iran would have to develop. If Iran did develop a missile capable of hitting the USA and a nuclear devise, even though they would probably never physically use either of them, they could use them as intimidation tool in international diplomacy. Thus giving them more leverage in diplomatic affairs.

If Iran wanted the effect of an ICBM it has only to load a launcher into the load of a merchant ship, sail the ship within range and launch the missile/s when it finds suitable current. Theres nothing complicated about doing that.

A small missile shield in Eastern Europe is a pretty pathetic attempt at bullying. How would a missile shield prevent Russia selling the Iranians weapons exactly?

The Russians look at the shield as a first strike threat.

There is no strategic alliance or anything between to two places, just business transactions; the Iranians buy the Russians weapons.

There is a strategic alliance. At least an unspoken one. S-300's by themselves make it strategical. Aside from that Russia has UN Veto and can probably influence the use of airbases critical to an assault on Tehran.

[Mouroux]

So you are saying that modern Islamic World thinks we are all Communists? That we wish to expunge class and make them all buy Pepsi-Cola?

When you say we, what exactly do you mean, who is we?

Could you clarify your point Mouroux?

We means whatever the reader perceives it to mean I suppose -what does anyone mena when they say 'we', or 'you' or 'I' for that matter? 'We' are all posting on an Irish politics website (Ireland is considered to be a western country and the Irish people are considered to be a western people and generally subscribe to the Anglo-american geo-political world-view) --we are also all English speakers... so based on all of that I would hope that 'we' holds meaning for you. Now if everyone produced a paragraph of explanatory text on every ocassion the term 'we' was used... but you asked!

Have you watched the documentary?

Mainstream Islam --purportedly represented by the leadership in Iran-- does NOT equate the 'west' with Pepsi Co., etc. etc. It's not all ice-coolers and brightly lit shopping malls. 'Materialism' (refer back to my first post in this thread), it is alleged, has much darker and explicitly evil connotations, not just in theory or the classroom but in practice -leading, in actual fact, to the extermination of tens of millions of people in, variously, Russia, Eastern Europe, China, etc. etc. Both materialism and darwinism were core aspects of the various Fascist and Communist regimes. The element of materialism is also, again allegedly, a core aspect of modernity --and this tends to be seen as a positive from within current western culture (consider 'progressive' -again, refer back to my initial post and especially the documentary) but as a negative from an Islamic perspective (in the context of various conflicts, recent past and present, between west and middle-east).

Hope this meets your clinical/exacting standards of clarity and that you are now no longer purporting to be utterly confused.

[jcdf]

We means whatever the reader perceives it to mean I suppose -what does anyone mena when they say 'we', or 'you' or 'I' for that matter? 'We' are all posting on an Irish politics website (Ireland is considered to be a western country and the Irish people are considered to be a western people and generally subscribe to the Anglo-american geo-political world-view) --we are also all English speakers... so based on all of that I would hope that 'we' holds meaning for you. Now if everyone produced a paragraph of explanatory text on every ocassion the term 'we' was used... but you asked!

I am sorry; I should have been more specific. When I said "we" I meant what does the Islamic World consider us 'the west' to be in totality. This documentary is about the Russians, a group many would consider not part of 'the west' and the Nazis another non-western group. Yet you repeatedly state that the west is the Anglo-American crowd. Are you implying that communism and fascism are connected to materialism, which originates from the Anglo-American crowd? Are the Russians part of the west?

Have you watched the documentary?

Not all of it, just the four and a half minute clip you posted from Youtube. The basic synopsis of "Soviet Story" is that the Nazis and Communists had much in common and both grew from the teaching of Karl Marx. The Nazis and the Communists no longer exist as a significant force in the world so the Islamic Worlds fears of them or their ideology are unjustified.

Mainstream Islam --purportedly represented by the leadership in Iran-- does NOT equate the 'west' with Pepsi Co., etc. etc. It's not all ice-coolers and brightly lit shopping malls. 'Materialism' (refer back to my first post in this thread), it is alleged, has much darker and explicitly evil connotations, not just in theory or the classroom but in practice -leading, in actual fact, to the extermination of tens of millions of people in, variously, Russia, Eastern Europe, China, etc. etc. Both materialism and darwinism were core aspects of the various Fascist and Communist regimes. The element of materialism is also, again allegedly, a core aspect of modernity --and this tends to be seen as a positive from within current western culture (consider 'progressive' -again, refer back to my initial post and especially the documentary) but as a negative from an Islamic perspective (in the context of various conflicts, recent past and present, between west and middle-east).

I do not believe that the current leadership of Iran represents mainstream Islam or even the Shia branch of Islam even though it claims to. Just as I do not believe the Saudi Royals represent the mainstream of Sunni Islam.

So you think 'Materialism' is the cause of all the deaths of WWII from communism and fascism etc. I disagree!

In the documentary it is mentioned that the United States and British Common Wealth aligned with the Soviet Union to defeat the Nazis. The Nazis had become extremely powerful by 1942 and the United States and British Common Wealth could only defeat them through a temporary alliance with the Soviets. The Islamic World must realize this.

[Mouroux]

I am sorry; I should have been more specific. When I said "we" I meant what does the Islamic World consider us 'the west' to be in totality. This documentary is about the Russians, a group many would consider not part of 'the west' and the Nazis another non-western group. Yet you repeatedly state that the west is the Anglo-American crowd. Are you implying that communism and fascism are connected to materialism, which originates from the Anglo-American crowd? Are the Russians part of the west?

Not all of it, just the four and a half minute clip you posted from Youtube. The basic synopsis of "Soviet Story" is that the Nazis and Communists had much in common and both grew from the teaching of Karl Marx. The Nazis and the Communists no longer exist as a significant force in the world so the Islamic Worlds fears of them or their ideology are unjustified.


I do not believe that the current leadership of Iran represents mainstream Islam or even the Shia branch of Islam even though it claims to. Just as I do not believe the Saudi Royals represent the mainstream of Sunni Islam.

So you think 'Materialism' is the cause of all the deaths of WWII from communism and fascism etc. I disagree!

In the documentary it is mentioned that the United States and British Common Wealth aligned with the Soviet Union to defeat the Nazis. The Nazis had become extremely powerful by 1942 and the United States and British Common Wealth could only defeat them through a temporary alliance with the Soviets. The Islamic World must realize this.

Do go back and reread the posts you are responding to. I deliberately made the point that the Iranian leadership is purportedly representative of mainstream Islam. But if you want to continue with the cheap shots that's your problem. If you disagree with the content or with the documentary, fine --set out your own interpretation.

Two points:

(i) OBVIOUSLY I do not think that "materialism is the cause of all the deaths of WWII". What I actually said is that materialism is a core element of both Fascism and Communism. This is my contention, whether you like it or not. Please stick to the substance and to what was actually said.

(ii) Some questions for you! Was Stalin a psychopath (be honest with yourself) --yes or no? Was a deal made with Stalin after WWII that would impact on Europe for the next fifty years? Yes or no? Does Western Europe have a very mucky past--a genealogy, if you like? How might this impact on Islamic perceptions of the 'west'? While this line of questioning is a response to the topic of the current thread, the documentary addresses a wider set of historical considerations.

I recommend the full documentary. Please bookmark it, again the link is:

'The Soviet Story' (2008)

Wisevid

While we like to think that everyone at p.ie is cynical beyond belief and desensitised to any conceivable political subject matter... many people reading this may be casual visitors to the forum, etc. so please note that some will understandably find the themes/footage upsetting, so if it's not for you, that's fine.