At the request of L'Chaim.
So anyway, where was I? Oh yes, from the ridiculous 'Is Irish Left comparable with Nazi Ideology?' thread, which rapidly descended into farce:
So, would you like to answer the above charges or is this going to descend into a slanging match?Originally Posted by Cellach
In the interests of fairness I am going to accept that Israeli security is threaten by rocket and suicide attacks and that Hamas states in its charter that it wishes to completely destroy Israel. I also wish to express my admiration for the brave defence of Israel from three Arab states during the 1967 war. I also accept that most Arab leaders outside the West Bank and Gaza do not wish to solve the conflict as it draws attention away from their own internal affairs. However I believe the Israeli methods are counter-productive, exacerbate the situation and further endanger the viability of Israel and the quality of life of it's citizens, both Arab and Jew.
All conflicts eventually end up at the negotiating table. And the longer the conflict goes on the harder it is to get to the table to talk. But eventually both sides will sit down to discuss options and reach agreements. Since 1967 Israel has offered to return land for peace agreements, and so far they have returned over 90% of the land they won in 67 in return for peace. But it was Palestinian (and other Arab) leaders who always refused to make peace. And at the moment the idea of 'discussion' to some of the Palestinian leaders, is throwing their opponents out of the windows of high rise buildings and killing those who don't share their narrow views of the world. But eventually, when in the words of Golda Meir, "they love their own children more than they hate the Jews" they will sit down and negotiate peace with Israel. The Arab-Israeli divide can only be resolved by negotiation. Otherwise it's going to be more attacks by Palestinain militants on Israeli civilians and Israeli counter-attacks.........and no independent Palestinian state
How do you answer my accusation that current Israeli methods are counter-productive, in that they only foster more hate and drive Arabs into the arms of extremists? What about the occupation of the West Bank? I believe at the moment there are 40 Israeli bases in the West Bank. That figure may be wrong, feel free to correct me. Also, the closed roads and the issue of checkpoints? The West Bank could fit into County Cork, but even in this area Arabs are unfree to move about, both because of the closed military areas and Israeli settlements. The 'peace wall' which has been constructed goes well inside the line of the 1967 borders which Israel has ignored countless UN resolutions to withdraw from. Do you not think the most productive course of action would be to withdraw inside and defend the 1967 borders, and improve the quality of life for Arabs within Gaza and the West Bank, thus removing some of the reasons for Arab aggression against Israel? How many military operations has Israel mounted against Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza since 1967? How many of them have caused the situation to improve? Finally, does not employing a conscript army composed largely of teenagers not embitter and brutalise a large cross section of young Israelis? Not to mention the effect of living in one of the most oppressive and impoverished areas of the world has in embittering and brutalising young Arabs. I admire many things about Israel L'Chaim. I admire how Israeli's have taken a barren and dusty land and made it bloom. I admire that Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East that even comes close to the definition of a modern democracy. But I cannot for the life of me understand how Israel justifies administrative detention, economic blockade and the corralling of civilians in high density areas that are shelled with high explosive and white phosphorous rounds.
If palestinians turn to extremism then that's their choice. They launched a campaign of suicide bombings, in which over six hundred Israelis (with thousands more targeted), the large majority of them civilians and children, were killed, during the most accommodating Israeli government in Israel's history (The one of PM Barak).
The fact is, most of the Palestinian leaders (and those who vote and support them) looks to destroying Israel, and not settle for an Independent palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza. Palestinians, who actually enjoy more rights than the arabs in Iraq, Syria, Libya etc.) who turn to suicide bombings are not doing so out of an act of desperation or being forced to do such things. So called Freedom fighters in far more desperate circumstances than the palestinians could ever claim, have never not only targeted civilians (like palestinian extremists do) but never turned to suicide bombing. What drives these terrorists to carry out suicide bombings against Israeli civilains is not a reaction to Israeli security methods. What drives them is religious passion. That is clear from the testimonies of the bombers who make videos before they carry out their attacks, and testimonies of the families of these suicide bombers. You never hear mothers of Palestinian suicide bombers saying their child carried out a bomb attack because of poverty or Israeli security measures. They always say he/she died a martyrs death for the sake of allah. What motivates these people is religious fervour. It is the hope of pleasing allah and getting rewarded in heaven. Israel is just their excuse. It is their belief that murdering Jews (and Americans) is a virtuous act. And this belief has been continually preached in palestinian mosques and on palestinian/Arab television. Palestinian terrorists murder Jews because of ideology. They believe it is God's will to do so.
Last edited by L'Chaim; 26th October 2009 at 03:20 AM.
Cellach ,
Palestine was never a barren land . It has been blooming since forever .
Also , in the 1967 war , israel was the aggressor . It attacked first .Thats what 'preemptive strike' means. And as with all preemptive strikes , the reasons given are about as solid as the WMD reasoning for the Iraq invasion.
The same goes for the 1956 war .
Example? Do you deny that the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza live in poverty? Are you aware the first suicide bombing in the Middle East was carried out by Israeli extremists against British forces? (Bombing of the King David Hotel)
Religious passion? I think your putting the horse before the cart here. Fatah was a secular and quasi socialist organisation. It was only when Fatah was seen to be a failure, partly through their own corruption and incompetence yes, but also because Israel refused to negotiate with Arafat, that the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza turned to Hamas, who were seen to be getting results against Israeli military might. Religious fervour is usually an effect, not a cause, in it prospers in a populace that is oppressed and humiliated. They weren't murdering Jews when the land was a British protectorate or an Ottoman province. So what has changed? Also, is there no religious fervour on the Israeli side, particularly in the illegal settlements in the West Bank? And they are illegal L'Chaim, under international law. You have yet to defend any of the Israeli military methods, specifically administrative detention, economic blockade, and the shelling of high density civilian areas. You have merely thrown a religious red herring which I hope I have dealt with satisfactorily for the time being.
There is several important differences Fermoy. Foremost of them being that Iraqi troops were not massing on the borders of the United States. Nassar had also been sabre rattling for weeks before the start of the conflict, as opposed to the actions of Saddam before March 2003 which were largely conciliatory. Also, while some agriculture did indeed take place before the foundation of the state of Israel, Israel has modernised it to such an extent that Israel citrus is one of the countries largest exports.
Another parallel with Israel's good ally,Apartheid Seff Efrikeh - citrus fruits were their top export too, until sanctions put an end to it (and here, this particular parallel with Israel ends).Israel has modernised it to such an extent that Israel citrus is one of the countries largest exports.
Anyway, this whole 'making the desert bloom' thing is a load of tosh. How could Palestinians survive for centuries if they were unable to produce food to eat (cue the usual lies about how there is no "Palestinian people')? Yes, the Zionists did introduce more advanced agricultural techniques to Palestine (though this is exaggerated) but that is the norm when a people from a far more technologically advanced region (Europe) migrate to a less developed part of the world (Palestine). The same could be said for whites in Africa, Australia and many other places too. But only colonial dinosaurs would ever suggest that having better ploughs made everything else OK.
At the expense of Palestinian produce eh .
Not that they make bugga all out of the oranges , israel's greatest export is recycled US aid dollars .
Don't be fooled by the israeli propaganda ,
The only thing they produce in abundance is misery .
And the reason that the zionists were able to introduce the advanced agricultural techniques and technology , apart from the general developments world wide , is because of the training that they were given , prior to 1948 . And that training , was given to the zionists settlers in nazi germany in the 1930s . Coupled with that was the financial assistance and the farms and factories that the nazis set up for the zionists in Palestine .
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