Reclaiming Al Andalusia Stone by Stone

[Prester Jim]

Prester Jim: For Europe the enlightenment came when they separated the church from the affairs of the state... For Muslims it was the opposite... Since Muslims lost the Islamic state they have been divided and humiliated by their enemies... that is the reason why Islam looks backward to its past unlike the nations of the west...

Well there was plenty of advancement in the renaissance also but essentially true.
The Ottoman empire was formidable up to the 18th-19th century and was an Islamic state, It didn't stop decadent decline though.
essentially I would say that it is possible for a society to be advanced and advancing and to be religious but it is more unlikely.
The US at the moment and particularly under W was very religious but capitalism trumps religion there and in fact often (in particular a very popular form of protestantism) it is not a true form of christianity at all but one that advocates riches to the worthy and says that if you are rich you are good and if you are poor you are undeserving.
this form of christianity allows charity of course but it is primarily a philosophy of greed morally backed up by a venal church.

My point is that even here temporarily there was a slight retardation of stem cell research but essentially the business of advancement (if only for the few and in science) went on unhampered.

That Islam is a powerful force in popular movement terms and demographic terms but is redundant in the sense of it being a force for progress is unrelated to its success as a world power.
Or at least I see no evidence for a link.
there was merely a temporal correlation between the two a number of centuries ago. but after this the strength of islamic nations lingered on while their society and science stagnated in relation to Europe.
from renaissance onwards especially after the enlightenment and industrial revolution Europe became the dominant force while remaining divided up until this century.

[Thac0man]

Because the Islam of Al Andalus was very close to the Islam that the messenger of Islam had envisioned and applied in his life in Hijaz... It was a caliphate in its own right (although its rulers never declared it to be a caliphate... it was run just like an independent caliphate separate from the influence of the real caliphate centered in Baghdad)...

In the modern day it is the exclusivity of the term "paradise" when applied by some Muslims to Andulus that bothers me. The past paradise described seems to fit modern day Spain more than it did Andulus at any time in the past. Progress, science and almost unlimited religous tolerance.

The argument by MPAC types for reclaiming the Andulus Paradise, seems to be more about excerting control over Andulus and defining the limits of toleration, not introducing tolerance. It is therefore intolerant of freedom. A Paradise only for oppressors.

The MPAC crowd freely admit that non-believers would be required to pay a tax in order to live in the Paradise - and state it as if that is something reasonable. But a simular punitive tax was a feature of the Andulus of the Moors. That and other increasing restrictions led to the stiffening of the Spaniard reslove to fight them. What came after Cordoba fell may have been worse in many respects - but what has resulted in the modern day has yet to be equalled anywhere in the Muslim world. A sad fact.

In the end I view those who call for the restoration of the Andulus paradise like I do those who call for their nations to be Marxist. If its so great then why can I see no simular working examples in the modern world? Is the effort just too much? Or is the call simply a promise of the unattainable, paradise on earth - used to inspire a sense of injustice because others cannot deliver it.

[Dr Qasim Afridi]

Well there was plenty of advancement in the renaissance also but essentially true.

Renaissance was the start of the rebellion against the church...

The Ottoman empire was formidable up to the 18th-19th century and was an Islamic state, It didn't stop decadent decline though.

Yes and the reason for that was the Ottoman started comparing themselves with Europe and became complacent because they were superior to Europe in each and every regard... With that complacency came intellectual decline while Europe liberated itself by adopting secularism and democracy... Moreover the Ottomans made fatal errors during the era of colonialism...

essentially I would say that it is possible for a society to be advanced and advancing and to be religious but it is more unlikely.

Again... Spain, Ottoman and Abbasids... fitting examples of that...

My point is that even here temporarily there was a slight retardation of stem cell research but essentially the business of advancement (if only for the few and in science) went on unhampered.

There shall be no such retardation of stem cell research under Islam...

I think it is one of the most fascinating and promising technology in health care ever...

That Islam is a powerful force in popular movement terms and demographic terms but is redundant in the sense of it being a force for progress is unrelated to its success as a world power.

Progress is the key factor... A world power has to be progressive... Money and huge resources mean nothing in the grand scheme of things... Compare America with Saudi Arabia... One is a leading nation and a super power (though crumbling slowly) and the other... richest country in the world if you consider the oil resources... yet it is a backward desert essentially with the majority of its people poor and devoid of any notion of progress...

Or at least I see no evidence for a link.
there was merely a temporal correlation between the two a number of centuries ago. but after this the strength of islamic nations lingered on while their society and science stagnated in relation to Europe.
from renaissance onwards especially after the enlightenment and industrial revolution Europe became the dominant force while remaining divided up until this century.

Thats not correct... The scientific contribution of Muslims to the modern world is huge... be it Ali Seena or Bin Hayan... it should not and cannot be overlooked... The real problem here has always been that although Europe progressed in other matters... its attitude towards Islam and the Muslim world remained based upon the same uninformed (and at times barbaric) Crusader mentality of the past...

[Sailor]

In the modern day it is the exclusivity of the term "paradise" when applied by some Muslims to Andulus that bothers me. The past paradise described seems to fit modern day Spain more than it did Andulus at any time in the past. Progress, science and almost unlimited religous tolerance.
The argument by MPAC types for reclaiming the Andulus Paradise, seems to be more about excerting control over Andulus and defining the limits of toleration, not introducing tolerance. It is therefore intolerant of freedom. A Paradise only for oppressors.

The MPAC crowd freely admit that non-believers would be required to pay a tax in order to live in the Paradise - and state it as if that is something reasonable. But a simular punitive tax was a feature of the Andulus of the Moors. That and other increasing restrictions led to the stiffening of the Spaniard reslove to fight them. What came after Cordoba fell may have been worse in many respects - but what has resulted in the modern day has yet to be equalled anywhere in the Muslim world. A sad fact.

In the end I view those who call for the restoration of the Andulus paradise like I do those who call for their nations to be Marxist. If its so great then why can I see no simular working examples in the modern world? Is the effort just too much? Or is the call simply a promise of the unattainable, paradise on earth - used to inspire a sense of injustice because others cannot deliver it.

Having been fortunate enough to spend the past 5 years living in the south of Spain, I can only hope that it continues to grow as a modern, liberal, forward looking society, where Christian, Jew and Muslim - not to mention the 101 other varieties - can live together in peace - and where each individual group will continue to refrain from trying to impose their views on others. If that is what we mean by paradise, Andalucia might be a good role model.