Question for Blue-shirts.........

[Corcaigh33]

There is no an ex-Democratic Left Labour front bench has the same views as those of the traditional Fine Gael voter. The histories of both sets of supporters, the parties' core vote, everything about both parties says on paper you couldn't go into coalition. But let's say for a second you have the seats to form a government after the next General Election...........

Do you really think it will be Fine Gael economic prudency that will be running the economy?
Do you really think that your tough on crime stance will hold sway with the ex-DL'ers liberal agenda?
Do you really think the ex-DLer's will give a damn about the CAP reforms in 2012 and the impacts on farming in this country (a core FG stronghold)??

Of course not - and that's just 3 instances..................

So if you want to be in power (as all parties do) is it :

a) so that Fianna Fáil are in NOT power and you are prepared to have Pat Rabbitte dictating policy to Enda Kenny in order for this to happen?

OR

b) has the raison d'etre of Fine Gael - looking after the poor oppressed farmers of the country - slipped into oblivion and you really have no core values at all anymore?

[Gael]

The histories of both sets of supporters, the parties' core vote, everything about both parties says on paper you couldn't go into coalition.

But they've been in coalition together before.

[jady88]

There is no an ex-Democratic Left Labour front bench has the same views as those of the traditional Fine Gael voter. The histories of both sets of supporters, the parties' core vote, everything about both parties says on paper you couldn't go into coalition. But let's say for a second you have the seats to form a government after the next General Election...........

Do you really think it will be Fine Gael economic prudency that will be running the economy?
Do you really think that your tough on crime stance will hold sway with the ex-DL'ers liberal agenda?
Do you really think the ex-DLer's will give a damn about the CAP reforms in 2012 and the impacts on farming in this country (a core FG stronghold)??

Of course not - and that's just 3 instances..................

So if you want to be in power (as all parties do) is it :

a) so that Fianna Fáil are in NOT power and you are prepared to have Pat Rabbitte dictating policy to Enda Kenny in order for this to happen?

OR

b) has the raison d'etre of Fine Gael - looking after the poor oppressed farmers of the country - slipped into oblivion and you really have no core values at all anymore?

This is absolutly true every word. Moreover it works both ways if Labour are the supplicant party then their core values are wiped away. This coaltion if elected will last no mor than 3 years.

[farnaby]

The number of live threads criticising FG has exploded in the weeks since bertie's troubles began, it's a bit like Objecteev and co rallying to the cause when Israel was under fire here, in the rhetorical sense...

In answer to your questions, FG/Lab/DL didn't ruin the economy last time(quite the opposite if i have to point it out), I don't believe Labour will oppose law&order initiatives because leftist parties are afraid of being seen as slack on law&order when in power, and I think FG's reliance on farming support is, like the proportion of the population and economy involved in farming, in continued decline.

[Marx]

Let me just point out that going into coalition means that the parties involved will have to compromise. No party in a coalition can have its own way all the time.

Corcaigh, Labour wants to get tough on crime our policy document released in June shows that. We want more effective policing especially in working class estates many of which have been over run by criminal gangs. I don't see how Labour and FG could possibly disagree on this.
Labour has pointed out that if elected taxes will not increase therefore FG will surely be agreeable with this. You are forgetting that there is a social democratic element to FG.

All this talk about exDL is nonsense its Labour now get with the times!

[Corcaigh33]

I have alot of Fine Gael friends (party officers and activists). No I am not a supporter myself. The one thing they tell me more than anything is that they are fed up compromising on what are core Fine Gael policies and positions just to be in power.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying compromise is not possible or that there is a program for government to be gleaned from both FG and Lab manifestos - my question was how much are you prepared to compromise on what you believe in for the sake of being in government??

As for the exDL thing - ok fair point I know it's Labour now - but ask pre-Rabbitte Labour people if they are happy with the fact that there are so many ex-DL people on the Labour front bench??? I know many who aren't.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Let me just point out that going into coalition means that the parties involved will have to compromise. No party in a coalition can have its own way all the time.

Corcaigh, Labour wants to get tough on crime our policy document released in June shows that. We want more effective policing especially in working class estates many of which have been over run by criminal gangs. I don't see how Labour and FG could possibly disagree on this.
Labour has pointed out that if elected taxes will not increase therefore FG will surely be agreeable with this. You are forgetting that there is a social democratic element to FG.

All this talk about exDL is nonsense its Labour now get with the times!

Labour has not been specific enough on its intentions regarding taxation. With Pat Rabbitte seen as a likely Finance Minister in a Rainbow govt, we are entitled to more info. Labour has shot its credibility in the foot on this issue. Everyone knows they will raise taxes if they get the chance. Evidence:

A: Rabbitte has openly called for a "wealth tax".

Link:

LABOUR leader Pat Rabbitte said yesterday he wanted to introduce a new wealth tax to fund vital areas such as health and transport services.

B: Labour has called for an increase in capital-gains tax, as reported in the Irish Times on Nov 17th 2005:

"Labour leader Pat Rabbitte has indicated that his party would push for an increase in capital gains tax in a Rainbow government."

C: Labour wants to "rebalance" the income-tax system. Now call me an old cynic if you will, but sounds like code for raising-taxes to me.

[Marx]

are forgetting that there is a social democratic element to FG.

A: Rabbitte has openly called for a "wealth tax".

Link:

LABOUR leader Pat Rabbitte said yesterday he wanted to introduce a new wealth tax to fund vital areas such as health and transport services.

B: Labour has called for an increase in capital-gains tax, as reported in the Irish Times on Nov 17th 2005:

[quote:uctbo9rr]"Labour leader Pat Rabbitte has indicated that his party would push for an increase in capital gains tax in a Rainbow government."

C: Labour wants to "rebalance" the income-tax system. Now call me an old cynic if you will, but sounds like code for raising-taxes to me.[/quote:uctbo9rr]

What you failed to quote from your source is that Labour will not raise income taxes

He said that instead of increasing income taxes, a tax could be used in areas where massive wealth is generated, such as land speculation and the bloodstock industry

The Labour leader, Pat Rabbitte, has promised to keep taxes down if his party is in government and to improve public services by getting rid of waste.

April 2006
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0402/labour.html

[Worldbystorm]

The number of live threads criticising FG has exploded in the weeks since bertie's troubles began, it's a bit like Objecteev and co rallying to the cause when Israel was under fire here, in the rhetorical sense...

In answer to your questions, FG/Lab/DL didn't ruin the economy last time(quite the opposite if i have to point it out), I don't believe Labour will oppose law&order initiatives because leftist parties are afraid of being seen as slack on law&order when in power, and I think FG's reliance on farming support is, like the proportion of the population and economy involved in farming, in continued decline.

Your initial point is interesting but only holds water if we consider that this forum is particularly influential on the broad Irish electorate... I have no doubt that many involved in political activity at all levels do look at these threads and scan them for information and rumour, but the general population?

Perhaps David Cochrane might have an answer.

In the meantime I wouldn't worry too much about it...

[Rocky]

There is no an ex-Democratic Left Labour front bench has the same views as those of the traditional Fine Gael voter. The histories of both sets of supporters, the parties' core vote, everything about both parties says on paper you couldn't go into coalition. But let's say for a second you have the seats to form a government after the next General Election...........

Do you really think it will be Fine Gael economic prudency that will be running the economy?
Do you really think that your tough on crime stance will hold sway with the ex-DL'ers liberal agenda?
Do you really think the ex-DLer's will give a damn about the CAP reforms in 2012 and the impacts on farming in this country (a core FG stronghold)??

Of course not - and that's just 3 instances..................

So if you want to be in power (as all parties do) is it :

a) so that Fianna Fáil are in NOT power and you are prepared to have Pat Rabbitte dictating policy to Enda Kenny in order for this to happen?

OR

b) has the raison d'etre of Fine Gael - looking after the poor oppressed farmers of the country - slipped into oblivion and you really have no core values at all anymore?

Do you want to know what just ruins your whole argument here? From 1994 Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left were in government together and did a very good job and worked very well together. So it's happened before.

Now to answer your questions I think we should look at that government.
1. Under FG/Lab/DL the low tax idea of previous FF governments was continued and to an extent increased. An example of this is the dropping of 12.5% corporation tax by the government. That was even done by a Labour Minister. Now due to the fact that Rabbitt has made it clear no taxes will rise, as has Kenny. I think it's safe to say that this government will do a good job on the economy. Whether that's FG or Labour economic ideas, I don't know it seems to be both.

2. Under FG/Lab/DL the CAB was set up and the government finally started to deal with the problem of organised crime in this country. Under reforms set up by that government organised crime was nearly destroyed in Ireland. Sadly it has re-emerged as bad as it was in the last 5 or 6 years though. Crime was also at a lower rate then it is now and also due to the huge crime problem that exists in Rabbitt’s own constituency Dublin South West I have no doubt that he will be anxious to solve it.

3. There was no problem in relation to agriculture last time, so I see no reason there will be this time. I have no doubt there will be a FG Minister for Agriculture.