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  1. #11
    hiding behind a poster hiding behind a poster is offline

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    It's interesting to note that neither of the articles linked in the OP, and none of the comments so far, make any informed observation whatsoever as to where the fault for this, the reason or reasons why Ireland incurred this fine, may lie. I'm not an expert on how EU farm payments work, and I'm fairly certain nobody on this thread is either. But here's the thing - who interprets the EU rules on payment eligibility for farmers, after the Commission? Is it for the farmers to work out, or is it for the member state governments to interpret and pass on? Are the rules clear, unambiguous and transparent, or not? Did the Dept of Agriculture make an honest misinterpretation and thus unwittingly misinform farmers, or did they decide to chance it and hope they'd get away with it and thus make the farmers happy? Or did the same happen except done by the farmers? If it was the Department's fault, then yes, the State is liable for the bill. If it was the individual farmers or their organisations, then they should be liable. And if it was a combination, then they're all liable.

    Now I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect nobody else here does, either. But hey, this is politics.ie, so let's all rush to judgement.
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  2. #12
    hiding behind a poster hiding behind a poster is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    Socialism for the Rich and Capitalism for the Poor it seems.
    So this only applied to "rich farmers", is that right? You might back that up with evidence, along with a definition of rich, whenever you're ready there FT.
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  3. #13
    Mushroom Mushroom is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiding behind a poster View Post
    So this only applied to "rich farmers", is that right? You might back that up with evidence, along with a definition of rich, whenever you're ready there FT.
    From Coveney's speech to the Committee, it appears that 19% of the claims submitted were fraudulent!

    Given that the problem related to claims being submitted for ineligible marginal farmland, it seems probably that it was actually the smaller farmers who were the biggest fraudsters.
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  4. #14
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    OK so the Supplementary Estimate was sent to the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which debated it on 8 December 2015.

    During the debate, Deputies Penrose (Labour) O'Cuiv (Me Féin) and Ferris (IRA) welcomed the fact that the farmers wouldn't have to repay the monies that they had fraudulently claimed.

    DEBATE

    The Committee then sent back the agreed supplementary estimate to the Dáil which agreed it (and another 13 supplementary estimates) with minimal discussion.

    In summary then - not a single party in the Dáil wanted the fraudulent farmers to be pursued for these payments - they all preferred to let the Irish taxpayers foot the bill.

    That's some good digging, 'shroom
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  5. #15
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by hiding behind a poster View Post
    It's interesting to note that neither of the articles linked in the OP, and none of the comments so far, make any informed observation whatsoever as to where the fault for this, the reason or reasons why Ireland incurred this fine, may lie. I'm not an expert on how EU farm payments work, and I'm fairly certain nobody on this thread is either. But here's the thing - who interprets the EU rules on payment eligibility for farmers, after the Commission? Is it for the farmers to work out, or is it for the member state governments to interpret and pass on? Are the rules clear, unambiguous and transparent, or not? Did the Dept of Agriculture make an honest misinterpretation and thus unwittingly misinform farmers, or did they decide to chance it and hope they'd get away with it and thus make the farmers happy? Or did the same happen except done by the farmers? If it was the Department's fault, then yes, the State is liable for the bill. If it was the individual farmers or their organisations, then they should be liable. And if it was a combination, then they're all liable.

    Now I don't know the answer to this, but I suspect nobody else here does, either. But hey, this is politics.ie, so let's all rush to judgement.
    Give up the auld this is politics.ie bollocks. We don't have that detail, because our media hasn't bothered to ask, and Leo Varadkar sure as hell hadn't been running a campaign telling us to snitch on farmers.

    I tell you something though - if someone gets a welfare payment incorrectly, they bloody well have to pay it back, even if the forms were unclear/it was an accident/insert other excuse
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  6. #16
    ShoutingIsLeadership ShoutingIsLeadership is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    From Coveney's speech to the Committee, it appears that 19% of the claims submitted were fraudulent!

    Given that the problem related to claims being submitted for ineligible marginal farmland, it seems probably that it was actually the smaller farmers who were the biggest fraudsters.


    Imagine if one in five welfare claims were fraudulent
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  7. #17
    Analyzer Analyzer is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutingIsLeadership View Post
    Give up the auld this is politics.ie bollocks. We don't have that detail, because our media hasn't bothered to ask, and Leo Varadkar sure as hell hadn't been running a campaign telling us to snitch on farmers.

    I tell you something though - if someone gets a welfare payment incorrectly, they bloody well have to pay it back, even if the forms were unclear/it was an accident/insert other excuse
    The media is also on welfare. Bought and paid for.of course they will not ask.
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  8. #18
    Analyzer Analyzer is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutingIsLeadership View Post
    Give up the auld this is politics.ie bollocks. We don't have that detail, because our media hasn't bothered to ask, and Leo Varadkar sure as hell hadn't been running a campaign telling us to snitch on farmers.

    I tell you something though - if someone gets a welfare payment incorrectly, they bloody well have to pay it back, even if the forms were unclear/it was an accident/insert other excuse
    The media is also on welfare. Bought and paid for.of course they will not ask.
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  9. #19
    Mushroom Mushroom is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShoutingIsLeadership View Post
    Imagine if one in five welfare claims were fraudulent
    They may well be! That's why the new Public Service Cards are so important. They'll help to stop members of certain ethnic minorities from having multiple identities.
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  10. #20
    PO'Neill PO'Neill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushroom View Post
    With the uncritical support of Scum Féin Deputies Ferris and McDonald!

    You really are a total cretin, aren't you, Pat?
    Oh dear I'm supposed to know about every discussion in the Dail including one back in 2015, ah shure God help I'm jusht human.
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