Fine Gael tell us they want reduction in debt in exchange for referendum

[poolfan81]

Do you even know who we owe that €31bn in promissory notes to?

Ourselves, it would appear - because the ECB 'allowed' the Irish Central Bank to create that money out of thin air to give to Anglo to pay back its debts and now the State, ie taxpayers, must pay that money back to another arm of the State, the ICB.

We owe ourselves €31bn at 8% interest over the next 10 or so years.

Personally, I don't understand it myself but that's the way it was explained to me by someone who knows.

OK could you just address the points made

To deal with your point - Why then are FG spending so much time talking about the promissory notes and telling us they are negotiating a reduction in them

[poolfan81]

The loans at cost instead of having a 3 per cent mark-up and the term extended from 7 years to at least 15 and possibly longer.

But as I said, the big problem is the people the govt is negotiating with simply don't want to know and won't give any ground.

Ever carried out any negotiations? It's kinda impossible when the other side won't negotiate - and you've few cards to play while they hold pretty much the entire deck.

OK so you agree FG have achieved nothing

[Spanner Island]

Do you even know who we owe that €31bn in promissory notes to?

Ourselves, it would appear - because the ECB 'allowed' the Irish Central Bank to create that money out of thin air to give to Anglo to pay back its debts and now the State, ie taxpayers, must pay that money back to another arm of the State, the ICB.

We owe ourselves €31bn at 8% interest over the next 10 or so years.

Personally, I don't understand it myself but that's the way it was explained to me by someone who knows.

So we should basically write off the debt we owe ourselves and save the 8% in interest?

[poolfan81]

Some posters here would be gutted if the government succeeded in getting a reduction in our debt.

The interests of the people are irrelevent to these posters.

Utter nonsense - what people hope is that the negotiate a good deal for the people

Yet looking at their record FG have achieved nothing concrete

[Grumpy Jack]

OK could you just address the points made

To deal with your point - Why then are FG spending so much time talking about the promissory notes and telling us they are negotiating a reduction in them

Because there is a legal obligation to repay them - thanks to the previous govt signing up to them - and it will cost us somewhere in the region of €4bn a year for the next 10 years to pay them back.

That's €4bn that has to come out of service and in tax rises that could be better spent investing in the economy to stimulate growth.

If the govt can get that spread over a longer term at lower interest, it could reduce the cost to €1bn to €1.5bn which eases the burden on taxpayers.

If we are stuck with this deal as signed by FF, it will kill us sooner or later.

My own view is that €31bn needs to be parked somewhere for a decade or so until the economy has recovered and we will be in a better position to pay it off over a long period of decades rather than 10 years.

[poolfan81]

Because there is a legal obligation to repay them - thanks to the previous govt signing up to them - and it will cost us somewhere in the region of €4bn a year for the next 10 years to pay them back.

That's €4bn that has to come out of service and in tax rises that could be better spent investing in the economy to stimulate growth.

If the govt can get that spread over a longer term at lower interest, it could reduce the cost to €1bn to €1.5bn which eases the burden on taxpayers.

If we are stuck with this deal as signed by FF, it will kill us sooner or later.

My own view is that €31bn needs to be parked somewhere for a decade or so until the economy has recovered and we will be in a better position to pay it off over a long period of decades rather than 10 years.

Earlier you were saying we are only paying ourselves - surely then if that's the case does it really matter

So im not really sure what you're trying to get at?

have you come up with a list of achievements on the deal FG have achieved yet

[Grumpy Jack]

So we should basically write off the debt we owe ourselves and save the 8% in interest?

Don't think it's as easy as that - as I understand it would leave a massive hole in ICB balance sheet which would then fall onto the ECB balance sheet and the Gnomes of Frankfurt won't allow that to happen. Those promissory notes are legal IOUs and the ECB is determined to enforce their repayment in full, as far as I understand it.

But as I said, I don't pretend to understand the whole three-card trick and I'm just saying what was explained to me and my limited understanding of it is limited.

[LDF]

Because there is a legal obligation to repay them - thanks to the previous govt signing up to them - and it will cost us somewhere in the region of €4bn a year for the next 10 years to pay them back.

That's €4bn that has to come out of service and in tax rises that could be better spent investing in the economy to stimulate growth.

If the govt can get that spread over a longer term at lower interest, it could reduce the cost to €1bn to €1.5bn which eases the burden on taxpayers.

If we are stuck with this deal as signed by FF, it will kill us sooner or later.

My own view is that €31bn needs to be parked somewhere for a decade or so until the economy has recovered and we will be in a better position to pay it off over a long period of decades rather than 10 years.

How can the Irish economy grow if it is forced to meet the targets set out in the Fiscal Compact?

[BlackLion]

Some posters here would be gutted if the government succeeded in getting a reduction in our debt.

The interests of the people are irrelevent to these posters.

some parties will suffer if the government parties get a deal.

[poolfan81]

Don't think it's as easy as that - as I understand it would leave a massive hole in ICB balance sheet which would then fall onto the ECB balance sheet and the Gnomes of Frankfurt won't allow that to happen. Those promissory notes are legal IOUs and the ECB is determined to enforce their repayment in full, as far as I understand it.

But as I said, I don't pretend to understand the whole three-card trick and I'm just saying what was explained to me and my limited understanding of it is limited.

Anyways it looks as if FG has given up on negotiating the promissory notes as well

Shift in focus on Anglo promissory notes - The Irish Times - Fri, Dec 16, 2011