Fine Gael Propose a Constitution Day and a "New Republic"

[hiding behind a poster]

A List-System is a cynical ploy by party-HQ to deny the electorate their democratic right to determine who represents them.

No it isn't. Everyone still gets to vote on who represents them, what a list system does is add representation based on the parties that people have voted for. The lists are published pre-election, so people know exactly who they're voting for if they vote for a particular party. If they don't like them, they can vote for someone else. Hence, the incentive is for parties to put high-quality legislators on their lists, as distinct from party hacks.

[hiding behind a poster]

Not at all, there's no comparison. Fluff is rock solid compared to reducing the number of TD's from 166 to 161 and the presidential term from 7 to 5 years.

There are other proposals Tony, but you obviously didn't read them. But since we're here, what reform proposals have FF come up with?

[hiding behind a poster]

But with these proposals all you have to do is get 10,000 like minded loopers, and what lunatic proposal couldn't, and you can get all this and more discussed at the top table. I mean it's not as if they have anything else to decide on.

Yes indeed, these proposals from FG could change the way the Dail works, once they set aside 3 days a week for discussing the latest Liveline concern, it'll be all systems go.

No, FG suggested 10,000 people as an example, but didn't commit to that figure. It could end up as 100,000.

[MadAsHell]

I've been saying this for ages, that FG should be far more radical than they have been so far. Looks like they've grabbed the bull by the horns. They've elaborated in their 20 TD/Seanad constitutional referendum within a year by saying now that they will hold 5 referendums on the same day with the aim of creating a "New Republic" in what would be the biggest constitutional overhaul "since the 1930's".
They have also called for the replacement of the social partnership scheme which they say is a jobs for the boys gig for insiders.

Full story in today's Irish Times:
FG proposes referendum on five key political reforms - The Irish Times - Sat, Mar 13, 2010

The full list of referendums:

- the abolition of the Seanad;

- a new “list” system for selecting 15 TDs;

- new constitutional recognition given to four Dáil committees;

- reduction of the President’s term of office from seven years to five;

- the introduction of a public petition mechanism for the Dáil.

They also want to reverse the Abbylara decision and have a referendum on reducing judges pay.

I think that this really has the potential to put clear blue water between FG and the other parties and will form the basis of the time for change/we can't let this happen again (and here's how) election campaign. I have felt since about December 2009 that FG have been too conservative in tackling the failure of the institutions of the state. I am a lot happier having read this.

Agreed, at least if it's a real proposal. I could argue with some of the suggestions, particularly the Judges and Public Petition aspects, but as a step in the correct direction - at last we're seeing some proposals from FG, rather than just Dail rants.

[Simbo67]

Agreed, at least if it's a real proposal. I could argue with some of the suggestions, particularly the Judges and Public Petition aspects, but as a step in the correct direction - at last we're seeing some proposals from FG, rather than just Dail rants.

I am looking forward to hearing the full proposals. Like I said, I think we need the next government to 1) figure out where the skeletons are and 2) ensure that the institutions of the state can not be corrupted again. That includes increasing the accountability of the government to the Dail. I think a lot of people would be happy to vote on a set of proposals that will result in the reform of the State. The time has well and truly come.

[MadAsHell]

I am looking forward to hearing the full proposals. Like I said, I think we need the next government to 1) figure out where the skeletons are and 2) ensure that the institutions of the state can not be corrupted again. That includes increasing the accountability of the government to the Dail. I think a lot of people would be happy to vote on a set of proposals that will result in the reform of the State. The time has well and truly come.

We can hope. Also, I think people aren't that interested in the skeletons anymore - we know there have been bodies buried and perhaps now just want a body politic that works, for the good of the country and not the party.

The big question is of course, will the Irish electorate change the voting habits of a lifetime and vote for progress/hope/change (from anyone!). let's be honest those of us on P.ie aren't representative, are we?

[ivnryn]

No it isn't. Everyone still gets to vote on who represents them, what a list system does is add representation based on the parties that people have voted for. The lists are published pre-election, so people know exactly who they're voting for if they vote for a particular party.

The point is that voters don't get a chance to vote for specific candidates. Also, in closed systems, the party leadership gets to decide the ordering of the list. Disloyal TDs can be punished by being moved down the list order.

A list TD would be dependent on the party for reelection. Unlike currently, where a constituency TD can stand as an independent, even if the party doesn't support him.

Ofc, with only 15 list seats, each party would only have a few list TDs.

However, list systems do have the advantage of allowing national level proportionality.

[tonic]

I am looking forward to hearing the full proposals. Like I said, I think we need the next government to 1) figure out where the skeletons are and 2) ensure that the institutions of the state can not be corrupted again. That includes increasing the accountability of the government to the Dail. I think a lot of people would be happy to vote on a set of proposals that will result in the reform of the State. The time has well and truly come.

Government as though it was performed behind a pane of glass?

Now there's a new idea.

[kerdasi amaq]

How about only three seat constituencies; where no party is allowed to win more than one seat!

[Slippers 2]

A list TD would be dependent on the party for reelection. Unlike currently, where a constituency TD can stand as an independent, even if the party doesn't support him.

Just make it easy for anyone who doesn't like their place on the list to walk away and submit their own list. If we had a single national constituency and a list system (in my view the best is Largest-Remainder, Hare-quota, no-threshold) at the last general election, there would have been 9 lists from parties and 87 lists from independents.