CJ Haughey - the legacy will live forever

[Congalltee]

I hear Vincent Browne is currently writing a biography on Haughey. Should be interesting!

I'm looking forward to that. Although a proper historical account will have to wait until 2022 when the 30 year rule will have run its course.
I suspect that both accounts will be more favourable than the two current biographies, bruce arnold and The Boss. Both good reads in their own right.
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[toughbutfair]

So I assume then you admit Ireland in 1987 was better than Ireland in 1982?

Anyway, I see the political and economic history of the time as more of a piece. I see an FF government wrecking the economy over the Lynch-Haughey years, a decent stab at regaining economic stability under the FG/Labour, and a political, economic and administrative compact (in the national interest, if you like) from 1987 on.

Haughey can't be absolved in any of this. He took some atrocious economic decisions such as the huge and populist increase in teachers' pay in the early 80s which frontloaded even greater problems to be solved by whoever had power in the mid-80s. (In an act of grotesque political backwoodsmanship and parish pump cowardice) he tried to scupper the Single European Act for no benefit to Ireland Inc. (thankfully he failed). I don't give Haughey any credit for seeing the light after it had all been laid out for him in black and white by (i) civil servants who had worked on restoring Ireland's economic sanity over the previous five years and (ii) Alan Dukes who basically said, "Mate, here's what you've got to do. We won't stand in your way".

Even with all of that said, in many ways much of what Haughey did was too late. For instance, we're still living to this day with some pretty awful ramifications - like an eviscerated and selective health service.

It's beyond belief to my eyes that anyone could describe such as scenario as one of the greatest governments ever. But I suppose, there's a multiplicity of perspectives out there, including many who want to give Haughey the benefit of the doubt. I for one don't extend him that facility. He was on balance an exceptionally self-centred and destructive force in Irish politics, and ushered in the values of greed and graft which have blighted Ireland since, and for which we are finally being forced to pick up the tab. Not the hallmark of a man being touted as the leader of one of the greatest governments we've ever had.

I think the Lynch and Haughey goverment of late 70s early 80s was terrible and they handed a mess over to FG/Lab. FG/lab failed to deal with this mess and the economy continued to get worse. The dail did one of its best work from 1987 to 1992. While I give credit to Dukes, the buck ALWAYS stops with the top man, for better or worse.

The cuts in health were required, we couldn't afford to spend more.

I also think Haughey was immoral and thieving but there are singers and actors whose work I love but I have no respect for as people.

[toughbutfair]

Silly? Dishonest? Maybe you're observing the phenomenon from within a narrow FF cultural framework.

I don't accept toughbutfair's proposition that Haughey led one of the greatest governments of this Republic. To me it's a risible claim on so many grounds. As for the stats you proffer, they are utterly devoid of perspective. FG/Labour inherited quite the most atrocious economy from the monumentally profligate Lynch and Haughey. They succeeded in controlling inflation and got the budget back into some kind of balance. They had to run deficits to get the economy back into equilibrium. When Haughey got into power again, he was pushing at an open economic door. Big deal. Brave man.

And don't forget, Haughey's attempts to secure control of his party was part of the reason why we ended up in such deep doo doo by 1982.

So to reiterate and lest there be any doubt, under no circumstances would I "give the Taoiseach of the day, the full credit for economic management from 1987 to 1992". At the very minimum, that is to wilfully ignore the Tallaght Strategy.

I remember the people of Limerick (my home town) being very unhappy when a hospital was closed, people protested and marched. I even remember an egg being thrown at him when opening a bridge. He was very unpopular, but he was right.

I wish Cowen had his courage.

[toughbutfair]

Hi sweetie! Your flaming and abusive post confirms to me your, ahem, strong FF proclivities!!!

And you clearly haven't bothered to read my posts on this thread which, if you are to accept them at face value, will confirm I am not nor have I ever been a member of the Fine Gael party!! [No offence to FGers! ]

Which is not to say that the FG/Labour administration didn't yield the state some significant service in putting some shape on an economy utterly wrecked by the Lynch/Haughey governments. Ahern/Cowen have repeated the trick!!

They doubled the national debt, which according to your own figures (FF had previously trebled it) means that in actual terms, they overspent by MORE than FF.

[toughbutfair]

btw I think Dukes is the greatest opposition leader in our history. If Enda kenny did the same (let's face it, we all know there has to be massive cuts) the country would be in better shape in two years. However, whether FG would be rewarded at the polls is another issue. History suggests they wouldn't be, I know Cowen wouldn't help if he was in opposition.

What is best for the opposition is not what is best for the country.

[McDave]

The cuts in health were required, we couldn't afford to spend more.

I don't want to labour the point and am prepared to agree to disagree on the core of what we're discussing, but I'll just make one observation on the above extract.

The Dirty Dozen cuts probably wouldn't have been necessary had Lynch/Haughey delivered reasonably responsible economic policies to start off with. Deficit spending was introduced by Martin Donohue. He couldn't have predicted the second oil crisis, but his and Haughey's continued wild spending built unsustainable costs into public spending when the tax base had been narrowed. So it was going to end in tears.

Whether the best time to shed those tears was during 82-87 or 87-92 is another matter. But the damage had already been done. Did FF learn? No. Ahern/McCreevy/Cowen have repeated similar mistakes. For my money there is no kudos to be attached by efforts by Lenihan to redress the matter. All it's doing is crisis managing an appalling vista brought about by originally catastrophic policies. FF have done it to us twice in my lifetime. It's not an appropriate way for government to treat citizens. On that basis to attach a positive legacy to Haughey is to mock those who have brought real and positive changes to Ireland, including none other than FF's own Sean Lemass.

[McDave]

They doubled the national debt, which according to your own figures (FF had previously trebled it) means that in actual terms, they overspent by MORE than FF.

Had there been no trebling, there would have been no subsequent doubling. The cat was already well out of the bag with institutionalised deficit spending. Controlling the trend was more important.

[toughbutfair]

I don't want to labour the point and am prepared to agree to disagree on the core of what we're discussing, but I'll just make one observation on the above extract.

The Dirty Dozen cuts probably wouldn't have been necessary had Lynch/Haughey delivered reasonably responsible economic policies to start off with. Deficit spending was introduced by Martin Donohue. He couldn't have predicted the second oil crisis, but his and Haughey's continued wild spending built unsustainable costs into public spending when the tax base had been narrowed. So it was going to end in tears.

Whether the best time to shed those tears was during 82-87 or 87-92 is another matter. But the damage had already been done. Did FF learn? No. Ahern/McCreevy/Cowen have repeated similar mistakes. For my money there is no kudos to be attached by efforts by Lenihan to redress the matter. All it's doing is crisis managing an appalling vista brought about by originally catastrophic policies. FF have done it to us twice in my lifetime. It's not an appropriate way for government to treat citizens. On that basis to attach a positive legacy to Haughey is to mock those who have brought real and positive changes to Ireland, including none other than FF's own Sean Lemass.

In 1987 it wasn't possible to turn back the clocks, the mistakes of the past decade (under Lynch,Haughey, and Fitzgerald) couldn't be undone. They had to deal with what the conditions of 1987.

Cowen was minister for finance so deserves a share of the blame for this mess, however, if on coming to power he had done a great job and fixed the problems with tough cuts and our deficit was 3% he would have deserved the praise, even though he was partly at fault for having us iin this mess.

[McDave]

In 1987 it wasn't possible to turn back the clocks, the mistakes of the past decade (under Lynch,Haughey, and Fitzgerald) couldn't be undone. They had to deal with what the conditions of 1987.

Cowen was minister for finance so deserves a share of the blame for this mess, however, if on coming to power he had done a great job and fixed the problems with tough cuts and our deficit was 3% he would have deserved the praise, even though he was partly at fault for having us iin this mess.

Couldn't agree less. If you're saying our politicians should be given fools pardons and allowed to learn on the job, then there is no hope for us. These people are exceptionally well paid. They're paid to have brains and to avoid getting us into these situations. Cowen-McCreevy-Ahern failed us. The consequences are there for all to see and suffer through substandard health, public transport and other services.

In a nutshell, Ahern, McCreevy and Cowen are Haughey's legacy.

[toughbutfair]

Couldn't agree less. If you're saying our politicians should be given fools pardons and allowed to learn on the job, then there is no hope for us. These people are exceptionally well paid. They're paid to have brains and to avoid getting us into these situations. Cowen-McCreevy-Ahern failed us. The consequences are there for all to see and suffer through substandard health, public transport and other services.

In a nutshell, Ahern, McCreevy and Cowen are Haughey's legacy.

Blaming Haughey for the current shower of fools is nonsense.

Why can't you admit his 1987 government was great , his first run was poor as was the fg/lab one. With the exception of the lemass years the country had been a failure until 1987.