CJ Haughey - the legacy will live forever

[Mitsui2]

A wonderfully naive view of Lynch. Though it is one which is shared by many. Give me Haughey over Lynch any day or any decade. Lynch was a hurler, who had no had no appreciation of what Fianna Fail The Republican Party stood for. He was an idealogically vacuos and economically illiterate. Ahern inherited the worst aspects of Lynch and Haughey. But Lynch gets away with murder time and time again.

I was around in Lynch's time so I'm not dewy-eyed - he was as sharp a stroke-puller as anyone on any side of serious Irish politics at the time (& it largely consisted of bloody strokes!).

As for Haughey... the less said (&c).

But I'm genuinely perplexed by one reference of yours.

This is not at all facetious, Congalltee - I really would honestly love to find someone who could tell me this, because while I'm very cynical about FF I don't actually like being cynical about FF:

It's 3am March 14th 2010... apart from the leeches who have festooned it for far too long, just what does "Fianna Fail The Republican Party" stand for any more?

[McDave]

Haughey's government from 1987 was one of the greatest ever. Tough measures, big cuts, closed my local hospital, got the finances in order. Finances are the most important issue, bar none. He got us ready for a boom.

He got a free pass at extreme levels of restitution in an economy he helped to wreck. Those extreme measures included eviscerating a health service which to this day hasn't recovered. Instead of blaming FG/Labour you should keep your powder dry for the Lynch cabinet which sold the economy down the drain and the subsequent Haughey "Charvet" cabinet which didn't have the guts to take any countervailing measures other than pose in an address to the nation while the economy sank. Haughey was simply another shambles of an FF leader for voters who desired a tribal chief more than a strategy for the country.

Opinions aside, you "greatest ever" claim borders on asinine, and is more suited to selling detergent.

[toughbutfair]

He got a free pass at extreme levels of restitution in an economy he helped to wreck. Those extreme measures included eviscerating a health service which to this day hasn't recovered. Instead of blaming FG/Labour you should keep your powder dry for the Lynch cabinet which sold the economy down the drain and the subsequent Haughey "Charvet" cabinet which didn't have the guts to take any countervailing measures other than pose in an address to the nation while the economy sank. Haughey was simply another shambles of an FF leader for voters who desired a tribal chief more than a strategy for the country.

Opinions aside, you "greatest ever" claim borders on asinine, and is more suited to selling detergent.

I have said MANY times on this thread (did you miss it) that his performance in the early 1980s was poor. IN fact every government from 1977 to 1987 was dreadful.

Does you personal hatred/dislike of Haughey mean that you will not admit that he turned the economy around from a long losing streak to one ready to boom?

[McDave]

I have said MANY times on this thread (did you miss it) that his performance in the early 1980s was poor. IN fact every government from 1977 to 1987 was dreadful.

Does you personal hatred/dislike of Haughey mean that you will not admit that he turned the economy around from a long losing streak to one ready to boom?

Wrong. You're missing the point. He didn't turn the economy around. He had the express cooperation of the opposition, without whose support he'd never have put through his measures. FF are quite happy to black out the impact of the Tallaght Strategy. (As much as you're happy to cite Dukes against the FG/Labour coalition.)

I'm not a member of any party that was in government between 1977 and 1987. But there is simply no comparison between a government which wrecked the economy (Lynch/Haughey) and a government (FG/Labour) which whatever its faults had to rectify the appalling situation in the midst of an inflationary global oil crisis.

I've heard all the attempts by FF (I've no idea if you're generally sympathetic to FF youself, or not) to rewrite the history of the Haughey/Fitzer years, but I'm not buying this "Haughey set up the C****c T***r" palaver for one second. Nor stuff and nonsense about a great government.

[ellie08]

Haughey got the unions and government and employers together at a time of high strikes, inflation, unemployement and debt. He got a deal together, he was also behind the IFSC and Temple Bar. The country got its act together under him and manufacturing companies set up here creating work for ordinary people.

FG/Lab doubled the national debt.

As far as I can see things improved under the rainbow coalition. Haughey did nothing for this country but line his own pockets.

[toughbutfair]

Wrong. You're missing the point. He didn't turn the economy around. He had the express cooperation of the opposition, without whose support he'd never have put through his measures. FF are quite happy to black out the impact of the Tallaght Strategy. (As much as you're happy to cite Dukes against the FG/Labour coalition.)

I'm not a member of any party that was in government between 1977 and 1987. But there is simply no comparison between a government which wrecked the economy (Lynch/Haughey) and a government (FG/Labour) which whatever its faults had to rectify the appalling situation in the midst of an inflationary global oil crisis.

I've heard all the attempts by FF (I've no idea if you're generally sympathetic to FF youself, or not) to rewrite the history of the Haughey/Fitzer years, but I'm not buying this "Haughey set up the C****c T***r" palaver for one second. Nor stuff and nonsense about a great government.

I assume you admit that Ireland in 1992 was better than 1987? and that the FG/Lab government was a disaster (as were Lynch and Haughey before them)?

While I acknowledge that Dukes played a great role by allowing the government do what had to be done, there is no getting away from the fact that the government did it.

You might as well be blaming the opposition today for not doing a tallaght strategy and thereby not allowing the government fix our economy (an equally ludicrous argument as your one)

The buck stops (for better or worse) with the government.

[toughbutfair]

BTW I have no party allegiance, I vote for whoever I view as the better government. Haughey over garret fitz (was only a child at the time though) but I'd vote FG (because of Bruton) over the coward Cowan and idiot Coughlan.

[McDave]

BTW I have no party allegiance, I vote for whoever I view as the better government. Haughey over garret fitz (was only a child at the time though) but I'd vote FG (because of Bruton) over the coward Cowan and idiot Coughlan.

That's fair enough. I'll take you on your word on that.

[toughbutfair]

As far as I can see things improved under the rainbow coalition. Haughey did nothing for this country but line his own pockets.

You think Ireland in 1995 when the Rainbow coalition came to power was as bad as Ireland in 1987? that is just wrong, all the economic indicators will tell you this is wrong. Go and research the figures.

[Congalltee]

I was around in Lynch's time so I'm not dewy-eyed - he was as sharp a stroke-puller as anyone on any side of serious Irish politics at the time (& it largely consisted of bloody strokes!).

As for Haughey... the less said (&c).

But I'm genuinely perplexed by one reference of yours.

This is not at all facetious, Congalltee - I really would honestly love to find someone who could tell me this, because while I'm very cynical about FF I don't actually like being cynical about FF:

It's 3am March 14th 2010... apart from the leeches who have festooned it for far too long, just what does "Fianna Fail The Republican Party" stand for any more?

fianna fail died in 1970, when it failed to back its ministers getting guns into catholic ghettos. It was no longer Republican.
Fianna fail was on the slippery slope when it began courting businessmen as a means of fundraising over church gate collections.
The Fianna Fail programme of 1926 was so radical-it would be dismissed now by Ahern as socialist. The slums were cleared the treaty was dismantled and IRA prisoners released. Fianna fail was in power to achieve things not for its own sake. Dev took a pay cut as taoiseach. While hardship ensued during the economic war, we did crucially get the Treaty Ports back. That ensured we stayed out of the war, which would have been more devastating.
Fianna Fail had its seven core principles. It believed in them.

Reynolds has been the only post Lemass leader, who comes any where near those values. Haughey, though brilliant in power once he had control of his party, was a cynical hypocrite. Lynch was the worst leader FF and the country ever had. Ahern comes a close second.

Cowen is interesting. He sincerely believes he is acting in country's interest, regardless of the electoral cost to his party. However, he has been in the Dail from such a young age that he has become institutionalised and has lost any grounding in reality. He probably believes he is a Republican, but there is precious little evidence to show of it.

In short the only thing Fianna Fail stands for today...is elections. It is a power driven party, past its sell by date. It needs to split to allow a left/right choice develop.