SF and FF: Let's have a referendum whether we need one or not

[oggy]

Put on my political sadist hat I would love a referendum. However, when I get around to reading whats been agreed I sincerely hope I can come down on the side of no need for a referendum as I fear social unrest. It was great for the ABFF to have FF be their sacrificial lamb last year but this time they only have themselves to display their hatred to and as we all know they hate each other more than they ever hated FF

[culmore]

will this not cause more trouble in the future if it is put into the Constitution, sometime in the future the Eu will break up. all empires do, and the government of this Country will be stuck with it

[Will Yam]

You should be ashamed of yourself using the names of two dead people to score political points. Scumbag.

Of course I should be ashamed.

I completely forgot that Jean McConville died peacefully in her bed. She was never abducted and brutalised by scumbag shinners who crawled out of a sewer in West Belfast.

And Jerry McCabe wasnt gunned down by other shinner psychopaths masquerading as brave patriotic freedom fighters. Let me think - did he commit suicide or just drop dead at the wheel of his car?

You can take a psychosavage out of the sewers of west belfast and dress him in an armani suit but you're still left with.....a psychosavage.

[Limerick Lad]

Those politicians who are advocating a referendum would appear to have more or less conceded that it's unlikely there is anything in the Treaty that constitutionally requires that it be put before the people in a referendum but they would like a referendum just for political sport anyway, hardly enough reason to expend millions of euro on an unnecessary referendum.

[sic transit]

Put on my political sadist hat I would love a referendum. However, when I get around to reading whats been agreed I sincerely hope I can come down on the side of no need for a referendum as I fear social unrest. It was great for the ABFF to have FF be their sacrificial lamb last year but this time they only have themselves to display their hatred to and as we all know they hate each other more than they ever hated FF

It's not that complex. It's just people being angry again and opposition politicians trying to harvest it. That includes FF for now. It is quite possible that Martin has gambled on the fact that none is required in setting out his demand for one .

[DuineEile]

Articles 27 and 47 of the Consttution were not intended to be window dressing. It is intended to have teeth. Unfortunately, the automatic Govt. majority in the Seanad has defanged it.

It works in a simple enough fashion. If one third of the Dail and a majority of the Seand asks the President to not sign a bill, and the President thinks it is such a matter of national importance that the will of the people should be ascertained, the matter is put to a referendum.

If the people vote yes, the bill is signed. If the people vote no, the bill can only be signed by a new Govt. (ie a new Dáil after an election).



It is all straight forward, and intended for precisely the momentous times we are living in.

Frankly, the Govt. should be seeking the will of the people, never mind the oppostion. For people to call this populist is a disgrace.

The relevant article is below.



"In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall inform the Taoiseach and the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas accordingly in writing under his hand and Seal and shall decline to sign and promulgate such Bill as a law unless and until the proposal shall have been approved either

i by the people at a Referendum in accordance with the provisions of section 2 of Article 47 of this Constitution within a period of eighteen months from the date of the President’s decision, or

ii by a resolution of Dáil Éireann passed within the said period after a dissolution and re-assembly of Dáil Éireann."





D

[sic transit]

Articles 27 and 47 of the Consttution were not intended to be window dressing. It is intended to have teeth. Unfortunately, the automatic Govt. majority in the Seanad has defanged it.

It works in a simple enough fashion. If one third of the Dail and a majority of the Seand asks the President to not sign a bill, and the President thinks it is such a matter of national importance that the will of the people should be ascertained, the matter is put to a referendum.

If the people vote yes, the bill is signed. If the people vote no, the bill can only be signed by a new Govt. (ie a new Dáil after an election).



It is all straight forward, and intended for precisely the momentous times we are living in.

Frankly, the Govt. should be seeking the will of the people, never mind the oppostion. For people to call this populist is a disgrace.

The relevant article is below.



"In every case in which the President decides that a Bill the subject of a petition under this Article contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained, he shall inform the Taoiseach and the Chairman of each House of the Oireachtas accordingly in writing under his hand and Seal and shall decline to sign and promulgate such Bill as a law unless and until the proposal shall have been approved either

i by the people at a Referendum in accordance with the provisions of section 2 of Article 47 of this Constitution within a period of eighteen months from the date of the President’s decision, or

ii by a resolution of Dáil Éireann passed within the said period after a dissolution and re-assembly of Dáil Éireann."





D

Don't forget the requirement for a No vote to be a minimum of 33.33% of the electorate under 47.2 to be deemed a veto.

[Passer-by]

Those politicians who are advocating a referendum would appear to have more or less conceded that it's unlikely there is anything in the Treaty that constitutionally requires that it be put before the people in a referendum but they would like a referendum just for political sport anyway, hardly enough reason to expend millions of euro on an unnecessary referendum.

Indeed, as referenda on international treaties are only required when they involve a transfer of sovereignty, it appears that they regard it as a failure by the government when they don't opt to transfer sovereignty.

[sondagefaux]

Would FF be calling for a referendum if they were in government? No.

Is this just another old-style FF piece of cynical opportunism? Yes.

Has Martin succeeded in creating a new type of FF? No.

Will FF survive the Mahon Tribunal report? Let's hope not.

[Limerick Lad]

Indeed, as referenda on international treaties are only required when they involve a transfer of sovereignty, it appears that they regard it as a failure by the government when they don't opt to transfer sovereignty.

Vincent Browne's theory on his TV programme last night was that Enda Kenny had somehow persuaded Merkel and Sarkozy along with the rest of the EU Governments to frame the Treaty in such a manner as to make a referendum constitutionally unnecessary in Ireland, if true that would be some achievement by an Irish Government, the Irish tail wagging the EU dog.