82% of French people against Turkey accession to EU

[Trampas]

Are you seriously suggesting that a headscarf can make turn a state into an Islamist state?

The state is still secular. A significant proportion of the populace might be pro-Islamic but a signficant proportion is very loudly secular. And the judges and military where the power lies are staunchly secular. That's why his party which is quite moderate was banned. You should know that such a hard line against moderate Islamic politicians is one of the main criticisms levelled at Turkey by the EU.

You really haven't a clue. Perhaps you would care to explain away Erdogan's oft quoted remark,....“ One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”. Now guess which he is.

Or this other one from Erdogan... "Democracy is like a streetcar. “You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off “.


And of course in 2006 we had the public row between Erdogan and then President Sezer
(neatly tidied away now with Gul in the presidential palace.) during which Sezer declared that islamic fundamentalism in Turkey was reaching "dramatic proportions." The President went on to say that this fundamentalism "is trying to infiltrate politics, education and the state - it is systematically eroding values." Now I think he would know. Don't you ?

During that row the Turkish daily Cumhuriyet carried the headline " Anti-secular forces are threatening Turkey and its institutions." Now I suggest that they might know something also.

[Rocky]

Yes, 50 million Anatolian peasants should do the trick. Then of course Turkey will provide all the labour we need. Oh wait.......



There goes the sole guardian of that once secular state.




At this stage Cyprus is little more than a bargaining chip for Ankara. The issue can be resolved very quickly.

Yes just because Turkey is poor today it will always be poor. Christ what you have to put up with.

Turkey is still a secular state. I see no evidence of that changing, although Turkey is developing a more healthy relationship between Islam and the state. There is no need for it to be ultra-secular, that would just lead to a extreme reaction at some point in the future.

[Rocky]

The racism on show here is disturbing. The problem isn't Turks, the problem is the freedom of movement ideal. The entire EU (as it currently stands) could move here tomorrow and nobody in authority could prevent it. Massive 'freedom of movement' aka Mass immigration from any quarter is just not sustainable by this small island society. Loss of border control for EU members is a problem which the EU elites need to revisit, then a lot of the worries over Turkish accession would disappear.

But why would they? Techically everyone in Ireland could move to France tomorrow as well, but once again why would we.

[Trampas]

Yes just because Turkey is poor today it will always be poor. Christ what you have to put up with.

Turkey is still a secular state. I see no evidence of that changing, although Turkey is developing a more healthy relationship between Islam and the state. There is no need for it to be ultra-secular, that would just lead to a extreme reaction at some point in the future.

Turkey is nominally a secular state and getting less secular by the day. Why else did we witness those protest marches last year in Istanbul with those placards saying "No Sharia Here". Now either yourself or the genuinely secular members of the Istanbul business community are misjudging the situation. My money is on you.

[Rocky]

Turkey is nominally a secular state and getting less secular by the day. Why else did we witness those protest marches last year in Istanbul with those placards saying "No Sharia Here". Now either yourself or the genuinely secular members of the Istanbul business community are misjudging the situation. My money is on you.

Are people are just over-reacting and are simply scared because they don’t know what will happen.

But if you are right and Turkey develops into a fully Islamic State, then obviously it won't be in a position to join the EU and I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

[Gadjodilo]

You really haven't a clue. Perhaps you would care to explain away Erdogan's oft quoted remark,....“ One cannot be a secularist and a Muslim at the same time”. Now guess which he is.

Or this other one from Erdogan... "Democracy is like a streetcar. “You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off “.


And of course in 2006 we had the public row between Erdogan and then President Sezer
(neatly tidied away now with Gul in the presidential palace.) during which Sezer declared that islamic fundamentalism in Turkey was reaching "dramatic proportions." The President went on to say that this fundamentalism "is trying to infiltrate politics, education and the state - it is systematically eroding values." Now I think he would know. Don't you ?

During that row the Turkish daily Cumhuriyet carried the headline " Anti-secular forces are threatening Turkey and its institutions." Now I suggest that they might know something also.

I'm responding to comments that Turkey is an Islamic state - the reality, not quotations from individual politicians. I could quote lots of stuff from George Bush which would give the impression that the US is a fundamentalist Christian state.

There is a strongly secular tradition in Turkey and they have been exaggerating the threat from the AKP because there are votes to be won in doing so - particularly amongst the westernised middle classes in western Turkey. That doesn't mean Turkey is heading the way of Saudi Arabia.

But prove me wrong. Show me how, e.g. Sharia law is being implemented in Turkey. Let's deal with *reality*.

[Trampas]

I'm responding to comments that Turkey is an Islamic state - the reality, not quotations from individual politicians. I could quote lots of stuff from George Bush which would give the impression that the US is a fundamentalist Christian state.

There is a strongly secular tradition in Turkey and they have been exaggerating the threat from the AKP because there are votes to be won in doing so - particularly amongst the westernised middle classes in western Turkey. That doesn't mean Turkey is heading the way of Saudi Arabia.

But prove me wrong. Show me how, e.g. Sharia law is being implemented in Turkey. Let's deal with *reality*.

"Reality" is well represented by those quotes from former President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, quotes that you have chosen to ignore. The EU has also had to listen to constant AKP demands for EU blasphemy laws. It is clear that the AKP is intent on replacing the cult of Mustapha Kemal with the cult of Mohammed.

[Gadjodilo]

"Reality" is well represented by those quotes from former President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, quotes that you have chosen to ignore. The EU has also had to listen to constant AKP demands for EU blasphemy laws. It is clear that the AKP is intent on replacing the cult of Mustapha Kemal with the cult of Mohammed.

I could point to a number of quotes from the leaders of some east European countries and Italy over the last few years that would lead one to believe that those countries' laws were (or were going to be) structurally anti-gay, anti-Roma or anti-semitic.

Believe me, if the AKP heads down the Sharia road, it will sound the death knell for Turkey's EU ambitions and justifiably. Personally, I don't think it will get that far. I don't see Ankara being a member for a looooong time, if ever.

The Turks are getting more and more cheesed off with the sniping from EU capitals - and indeed, a large minority (now turning into a majority) were never exactly gagging to be let into the fold in the first place. So don't spend too much time worrying about this.

[Metric]

I could point to a number of quotes from the leaders of some east European countries and Italy over the last few years that would lead one to believe that those countries' laws were (or were going to be) structurally anti-gay, anti-Roma or anti-semitic.

.

care to provide proof of this? apart from some Italian politician (could have been Berlusconi), making a comment about electronically tagging Roma as a result of a huge wave of Roma gang crime in parts of Italy, I'd love some links to European politicians being anti-gay or anti-semetic.

Ironically it is modern Islamic states that are the rife with anti semetism and despicable crimes/laws against gays.

[Gadjodilo]

care to provide proof of this? apart from some Italian politician (could have been Berlusconi), making a comment about electronically tagging Roma as a result of a huge wave of Roma gang crime in parts of Italy, I'd love some links to European politicians being anti-gay or anti-semetic.

Ironically it is modern Islamic states that are the rife with anti semetism and despicable crimes/laws against gays.

Can we please stop generalising about Islamic states? There’s a huge variation between the various countries where Muslims are the majority.

Latvian Janis Smits described gayness as a sin and that gays were degenerates. He said legalising homosexuality was the "legalisation of sexual perversion". He's currently head of that country's human rights commission.......!

The Kaczynskis - do you need me to provide examples?

There was a rumpus a few years ago when the Italian labour minister Clemente Mastella blamed the country’s problems on “New York’s Jewish lobby” and “Jewish high finance”. It didn’t hurt his career. He went on to become Justice Minister in one of the coalitions cobbled together by Romano Prodi.

Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus recently blamed the problems in one city on the Jews. He said it was a Jewish city and the Jews don’t look after their cities......! Original.....!

Lithuania – the government there seems to be taking an anti-Semitic turn. They allowed a bunch of neo-nazis to parade through Vilnius last year. Meanwhile, several Lithuanian Jewish Holocaust survivors face prosecution over “murders” they supposedly carried out as anti-Nazi resistance fighters. It seems that this might be in response to international criticism that they haven’t punished pro-Nazi collaborators.

Romania – both PM and President have recently made comments deeply offensive to the Roma – to the effect that they’re all thieves and smelly. It would be unfair to single out Romania though. Anti-Roma comments are ten-a-penny in Eastern Europe.