The Big Debate: Ganley vs Cohn-Bendit

[marmurr1916]

A close connection between one man and the party. It's a personal membership.

If you're going to make this ridiculous argument again, I'll repeat that now Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour, the Conservatives, UK Labour and numerous other political parties, other groups and organisations around Europe now have direct links with Libertas.

It's nonsense, total nonsense.

Is Cyprian Gutkowski a declared 'member of the European party Libertas'?

Possibly. We don't know because, unlike Igor Grazin, Libertas hasn't posted a photo of his form on flickr.

Is Cyprian Gutkowski a declared member of FF, FG, Labour, the Conservatives, UK Labour and numerous other political parties, groups and organisations?

No. He's a leading member of All-Polish Youth, an organisation "known to harbor anti-Semitic views", according to the US State Department, which "draws from traditions of extreme nationalism and anti-Semitism and recruits its members from among skinheads."

Declan Ganley has challenged the EU bureaucracy to take action on the Libertas application to be recognised as a pan-European political party.

Here's a challenge for Mr. Ganley: post photographs of the signed forms of all seven people that he's claimed supported the Libertas application.

Let's see if they're all the same (in which case all seven signatories would be declared members of Libertas) or if there are any significant differences between them.

[CookieMonster]

Here's a challenge for Mr. Ganley: post photographs of the signed forms of all seven people that he's claimed supported the Libertas application.

Let's see if they're all the same (in which case all seven signatories would be declared members of Libertas) or if there are any significant differences between them.

What? Is it fallacy time already?

*refers to playbook*

By gum, it is!

[marmurr1916]

What fallacy? If they all signed forms containing the words, 'LIBERTAS Membership Form', with a declaration of membership ("I, ........, declare being a member of the European political party Libertas."), then they're all self-declared members of Libertas, right?

Cyprian Gutkowski is the ex-deputy chief of All-Polish Youth, "named after a pre-World War II Polish nationalist movement which successfully campaigned for the introduction of a "Jews bench" in Polish universities to separate Jewish and non-Jewish students."

All-Polish Youth [COLOR=#800080]doesn't just confine itself to anti-semitism[/COLOR]:

Also in 2005, following the example of Warsaw, the mayor of Poznan banned a March for Equality and Tolerance in Poznan—one sponsored not only by the Campaign Against Homophobia but by human rights, women’s, and student organizations. When a small number of marchers persisted in assembling, members of the All-Polish Youth assaulted them, throwing projectiles and shouting “Gas the fags!” and “We’ll do to you what Hitler did to the Jews!”

Cyprian Gutkowski is a leading member of this organisation.

Cyprian Gutkowski was actively courted as a supporter by Libertas.

Did Cyprian Gutkowski sign a form (headed 'LIBERTAS Membership Form') declaring himself to be a 'member of the European party Libertas'?

According to CookieMonster there's a "close connection between one man [Cyprian Gutkowski] and the party. It's a personal membership."

But Gutkowski is more than just a personal member of Libertas, bad enough though that is. He's one of seven people who signed forms which Libertas claim support their application for registration (and hence funding) as a pan-European party.

A signatory who was actively sought out by Libertas.

Why did Libertas actively seek the support of a man known to be a leading member of an organisation involved with violent anti-semitism and homophobia?

Why did an organisation which previously claimed to have regard for "Europe’s traditional values of liberty, truth, justice, peace, democracy, tolerance, reason, innovation, family, dignity and the rule of law" seek support from the likes of Cyprian Gutkowski?

[Utopian Hermit Monk]

Back to the debate ...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsEC0DZCD0M]YouTube - Declan Ganley debates Daniel Cohn-Bendit[/ame]

I have only seen the above clip, in which Ganley is quite persuasive, but which doesn't include any of Cohn-Bendit's interventions.

Is the whole debate available anywhere?



edit:
found it: http://www.dcbn.eu/live/od.html

[arnaudherve]

A wrong person to talk to, and quite a trap too.

DCB is criticized by the Greens for being too right-wing and too nato oriented. He needed a foil to prove that he was not so right-wing and so nato oriented.

[OMahonyMunster]

Back to the debate ...

YouTube - Declan Ganley debates Daniel Cohn-Bendit

I have only seen the above clip, in which Ganley is quite persuasive, but which doesn't include any of Cohn-Bendit's interventions.

Is the whole debate available anywhere?



edit:
found it: Daniel Cohn-Bendit vs Declan Ganley: "The big debate" in the Renaissance Hotel in Brussels

Thatb dishonest edit of ganley soundbites is typical of the way that Libertas play with facts

Daniel Cohn-Bendit vs Declan Ganley: "The big debate" in the Renaissance Hotel in Brussels
Daniel Cohn-Bendit vs Declan Ganley: "The big debate" in the Renaissance Hotel in Brussels


Funny that Cohn-Bendit links to the full debate while Ganley hides the other parties answers., Transparency? Openness? Daniel Cohn-Bendit
Libertas.eu has just a three min link to the Youtube edit. It would also appear that Libertas are suggesting the Bendit is a paedophile News - Libertas.eu

Oh smears is it ?
Yes from Libertas and just the usual Libertas Spin and disinformation.

say No to Ganley
Say Yes to Freedom
say No To Libertas
Say No to the Big Lie

[cactusflower]

I apologise for diverging from that on-topic post, butI would like to clear something up here. The term "signatory" in relation to Gutowski is meaningless. The EU Regulations that apply don't refer to signatories, they refer to representatives. He was named by Libertas as a representative of Libertas, the Party.

From the European Commission factsheet on European Parties:

In order to be qualified as a "political party at European level", a party must:
• have legal personality in the Member State in which its seat is located;
• be represented, in at least one quarter of the Member States, by Members of the European Parliament (or in the national or regional Parliaments or regional assemblies),or it must have received, also in at least one quarter of the Member States , at least 3% of the votes cast in each of those Member States at the most recent European Parliament elections;
• observe, in particular in its programme and in its activities, the founding principles of the European Union, namely the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law;
• have participated in elections to the European Parliament, or have expressed the intention to do so.
The European Parliament ensures that the political parties at European level continue to meet these criteria. If any of these conditions is no longer satisfied, the relevant party forfeits its status of "political party at European level" and consequently is excluded from funding under this Regulation.
SCADPlus: The regulations governing political parties and rules regarding their funding at European level

The Consolidated Regulations are here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...0071227:EN:PDF

I would question seriously whether Libertas is represented in any elected body, as the Party has yet to stand anywhere for election. This was spotted by a UK MP.
However, it is unequivocal fact that Libertas purported to the EU Commission that Gutowski was a Libertas representative.

Further reaction came from UK Socialist deputy Gary Titley who described Libertas as "phoney," adding, "EU funds should only go to political parties whose elected representatives were elected in their name. As far as I am aware, this is not the case with Libertas."

I stand by my original statement that the EU officials who appear to have initially accepted Libertas's application must be a pretty dopey bunch.

[OMahonyMunster]

And the nonsense about the League of Polish Families, which has no basis in fact. The nonsense about the Anglo Adriatic Investment fund being a pyramid scheme and so on... that was all relevant was it?

What in Gods name are you lying about this for Cookie Libertas Poland is like a branch of the Polish League of families and Anglo Adriatic was arip off which ganley ran

that is about it now go away

[marmurr1916]

In order to be qualified as a "political party at European level", a party must:
• have legal personality in the Member State in which its seat is located;
• be represented, in at least one quarter of the Member States, by Members of the European Parliament (or in the national or regional Parliaments or regional assemblies),or it must have received, also in at least one quarter of the Member States , at least 3% of the votes cast in each of those Member States at the most recent European Parliament elections;
• observe, in particular in its programme and in its activities, the founding principles of the European Union, namely the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law;
• have participated in elections to the European Parliament, or have expressed the intention to do so.

That presumably is the reason why Libertas had the seven complete membership forms.

If each was a member of Libertas, then Libertas could claim them as representatives, even if they were elected (or appointed) as members of other parties originally.

So not only is Cyprian Gutkowski a member of Libertas, he's also a representative of Libertas.

[CookieMonster]

What in Gods name are you lying about this for Cookie Libertas Poland is like a branch of the Polish League of families

That's not true. You know that it's not true. You have nothing to back to this nonsense. You're a liar, peoplekorps.

and Anglo Adriatic was arip off which ganley ran

This is nonsense. The privatisation vouchers which Anglo Adriatic collected were never honoured by the Government of Albania. Anglo Adriatic were not allowed to invest the vouchers. It was not a rip off.