You can, and do, believe what you want. But back in reality, where Ganley isn't a secret agent etc, there is no link between the LPR and Libertas. None. They are separate parties, they have little in common and they are running candidates against each other in the European Elections.Originally Posted by cactusflower
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Link = connection. LPF leader = Libertas representative.
Are you saying that Ganley didn't know who Gutowski was when he asked Gutowski to act as Libertas's representative ?
Declan Ganley, or someone authorised by him, must have personally approached Cyprian Gutkowski, with full knowledge of his opinions and his activities.
Yet his support was actively sought.
There is a strong link between Libertas and Cyprian Gutkowski: it's one that Libertas actively sought to make.
Gutowski isn't leader of the LPR. He signed a document to support Libertas's application for recognition as a party on a European level. Nothing more. Bang all the drums that you want you can't make this any more significant that that, that's it. The LPR are a different party, they are a Polish party, they have their own policies and they are running their own candidates in the European Elections who have no links with Libertas. There is no link between Libertas and the LPR.
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Look back at the EU regulations on funding. Gutowski did not sign as a disinterested third party, he signed as a representative of Libertas. It is a legal requirement, under the EU funding regulations. He is a leader of the LPF, not the leader, and is also a leader of the notorious youth wing of the LPF.
The link between Libertas and the LPF has been well established.
Whatever Cyprian Gutkowski signed, what did Igor Grazin sign?
As the comment about the photograph of the form signed by Grazin on flickr says:
Not quite the same thing are they?The caption states: "The original declaration and signature of support by Mr. Igor Grazin for the Libertas application to become a European political party.".
Where as the form in the photograph states:
"Libertas Membership From - I Igor [Grazin] declare being a member of the European political party Libertas.".
That's probably why Hans-Gert Pöttering's office hasn't given Libertas an answer about recognition as a pan-EU party: question marks over the integrity of their application.
I hope that Libertas do take legal action on Monday, as Declan Ganley seems to imply on his youtube piece.
It would be interesting to hear Igor Grazin's sworn testimony in a court.
Last edited by marmurr1916; 3rd April 2009 at 10:54 PM.
It's amusing to see the path every Libertas thread takes here and on other sites. It starts off on one issue, usually based on a piece from the Caraccas Times, which is sometimes, but not always, a load of old wellies to begin with.
Then in come the usual hyenas who leap about the place for a few posts and then get tired. The somebody, usually but not always myself, posts a statement of defence. If it's not me the other party will inevitably be accused of being a Libertas suporter, despite having a very strong historic record to the contrary.
As the lies and nonsense are weeded out the accusations will then jump from the original story to another rehash of some old sh*te posted last week or the week before, which will have been dealt with in a similar manner at the time, and so on and so on and so on, meandering though the "I hate Libertas, through enough sh*t" playbook with predictable monotony.
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No, they haven't. There is no link between Libertas and the LPR. They are a different party, they are a polish political party, they have their own policies, and are running their own candidates in the European Elections. There is no link between the LPR and Libertas, none. Really. I know you desperately want there to be so you can make it match the fantasy right-wing monster party you've created in your head, but it's not and there isn't, there wasn't and there won't be a link between Libertas and the LPR. Sorry.
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Well if Gutkowski signed a form similar to the one signed by Igor Grazin, then he stated this on the form (a form headed 'LIBERTAS Membership Form'):
"I, Cyprian Gutkowski, declare being a member of the European political party Libertas."
The form Grazin signed states:
"I, Igor Grazin, declare being a member of the European political party Libertas."
Unless of course, Gutkowski signed a form with with a different wording, a wording which declared his support for the formation of Libertas as a pan-European political party, but didn't declare his membership of Libertas.
If the form signed by Grazin used a different set of words to the one signed by Gutkowski, then Grazin's claim that he didn't support the foundation of Libertas as a pan-European political party is strengthened.
If the set of words used on the form signed by Gutkowski is the same as on the form signed by Grazin, then it means that Gutkowski signed a form which declared him to be a member of Libertas:
"I, ........, declare being a member of the European political party Libertas."
Being a declared 'member of the European political party Libertas' is a pretty close connection, I think most people would agree.
Last edited by marmurr1916; 3rd April 2009 at 11:01 PM.
A close connection between one man and the party. It's a personal membership.
If you're going to make this ridiculous argument again, I'll repeat that now Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour, the Conservatives, UK Labour and numerous other political parties, other groups and organisations around Europe now have direct links with Libertas.
It's nonsense, total nonsense.
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