Libertas and the League of Polish Families

[Verhofstadt]

So what you're saying is that somebody who is a former member of an organisation is a solid example of a formal alliance of some kind? That's quite a canyon you've jumped there, peoplekorps. I fear you've missed the edge though... again.

I think you are being rather disingenuous by trying to correlate FF or FG grouping in the EP with Libertas's engagement with certain political groupings in Poland.

For better or worse grouping in the parliament are marriages of convienence which little or no actual co-operation and used only to get a couple committee positions. It stinks and I don't approve of it but it is way politics goes.

Libertas have involved members of far right parties in Poland in the establishment of their operation there. This is a far deeper involvement and Libertas should be big enough to say "mea culpa".

To claim otherwise is to engage in semantics that only weakens the arguments of Libertas further.

Funnily enough Libertas original press release (EDIT: spokesperson in Poland according to the IT) appears to accept the error and seek to move on but posters here seem hellbent on defending and justifying the error anyways.

Perhaps I'm missing the point of a discussion board, is that we argue for the sake of argument or are people actually believing what they post? (forgive my naivety)

[CookieMonster]

I think you are being rather disingenuous by trying to correlate FF or FG grouping in the EP with Libertas's engagement with certain political groupings in Poland.

Oh c'mon, it's about as close a link they have to the League of Polish Families as Libertas does. By the weird logic going on in this thread and Derek Scally's story my mammy has links to the Polish Families party too because she knows me and I support Libertas!

For better or worse grouping in the parliament are marriages of convienence which little or no actual co-operation and used only to get a couple committee positions. It stinks and I don't approve of it but it is way politics goes.

Ah sure it sucks, we know this. As an MEP said to Ganley (who likes to repeat it) "it's an agreement to share a photocopier and a coffee machine, and they don't even do that very well".

Libertas have involved members of far right parties in Poland in the establishment of their operation there. This is a far deeper involvement and Libertas should be big enough to say "mea culpa".

It's not really, in fact it's not at all. There's no link between Libertas and that party. The guy who runs the office in Poland used to be a member of that party but isn't a memeber anymore, that's really it. I'm not saying that Labour are the Green Party just because Nessa Childers used to be a Green.

To claim otherwise is to engage in semantics that only weakens the arguments of Libertas further.

What argument? That Libertas has no link with the League of Polish Families? It's not an argument, it's fact. They don't. They have no more a link with the Polish Families as my ar*e has with my elbow.

Funnily enough Libertas original press release (EDIT: spokesperson in Poland according to the IT) appears to accept the error and seek to move on but posters here seem hellbent on defending and justifying the error anyways.

Perhaps I'm missing the point of a discussion board, is that we argue for the sake of argument or are people actually believing what they post? (forgive my naivety)

A bit from column A and a bit from column B i think.

[OMahonyMunster]

Cookie says that the League of Polish Families did not help Libertas attempt to raid EU coffers. What about one of the magnificent 7 signatories to the failed application? Cyprian Gutkowski, ? ring a bell, League of Polish families and member of Libertas?

Is it complete ignorance or just lying that makes him say that Libertas and LPF were not a courting couple?

I base his membership of Libertas on the membership documents of that Libertas put on line for the two elected officials who said that Libertas used their signatures inappropriately or dis-honestly depending on who you believe. These were used to support the funding applications. Therefore Cyprian Gutkowski is /was a member of Libertas.

I am also sure that they did not part ways over the LPF skinhead Nazi membership or the anti Jewish homophobia spewed by its cadre. I await the real reason for these blood brothers parting with interest.

Libertas’s funding application required the signature of seven politicians represented in either the European parliament or national or regional parliaments or assemblies. The supporters include three Eurosceptic MEPs: Philippe de Villiers and Paul Marie Coûteaux, both members of the Movement for France, and Greek MEP Georgios Georgiou. The national politicians backing Libertas – Lord Alton, a life peer in the British House of Lords; Finnish MP Timo Soini, Estonian MP Igor Grazin; Bulgarian MP Mincho Kuminev; and Polish regional assemblyman Cyprian Gutkowski

Mr Gutkowski is deputy chief of All-Polish Youth, a radical group attached to the far right League of Polish Families, famous for attacking gay rights marches in Poland. Mr Soini is founder of the anti-immigrant True Finns party, which has five seats in the Finnish parliament.

Think tank threatens to sue Libertas over name - The Irish Times - Tue, Feb 03, 2009

[ibis]

What argument? That Libertas has no link with the League of Polish Families? It's not an argument, it's fact. They don't. They have no more a link with the Polish Families as my ar*e has with my elbow.

Members of the same body? Perhaps you're confusing two things there...

[FutureTaoiseach]

It is clear that Eastern European MEPs were got at by the Eurocrats to force them to withdraw support for Libertas. As for so-called "raiding" EU funds, Libertas was merely seeking its rights under EP rules in terms of funding. Nothing illegal about that. It is clear these persons did sign the Libertas documents. They were then put under intolerable pressure to change course. It underlines the sinister way in which the Eurocrats silence dissent.

[OMahonyMunster]

It is clear that Eastern European MEPs were got at by the Eurocrats to force them to withdraw support for Libertas. As for so-called "raiding" EU funds, Libertas was merely seeking its rights under EP rules in terms of funding. Nothing illegal about that. It is clear these persons did sign the Libertas documents. They were then put under intolerable pressure to change course. It underlines the sinister way in which the Eurocrats silence dissent.

It certainly is not clear they signed the funding documents. The documents published by Libertas appear to be membership applications not funding applications.

Nor they did not advocate the Liberts use of their names as they had signed only membership documents.
Either way your point is negated 100% by the fact that Cyprian Gutkowski did not withdraw his signature, he remained a stead fast supporter of Libertas as far as we can tell until now. Of course he is also League of Polish Families.


How close can you get to Libertas beyond joining and helping raise funds and not be in Libertas? Why are Libertas denying this association?

[conservative green]

The fact that Libertas got into bed at all with a party with strong links to skinheads, anti-semitism and street violence against gay pride marches is pretty shameful.

Interesting to see who else they attempt to distance themselves from.

Will it be hard right eurosceptics in the UK, France or Austria next?

By the way this site is an excellent source of tales of wonder re Libertas

Libertas? Nein Danke! Say NO to Europe's New Right Wing

Even CookieMonster gets a mention!

Who pays for peoplekorp's website?

[ibis]

It is clear that Eastern European MEPs were got at by the Eurocrats to force them to withdraw support for Libertas. As for so-called "raiding" EU funds, Libertas was merely seeking its rights under EP rules in terms of funding. Nothing illegal about that. It is clear these persons did sign the Libertas documents. They were then put under intolerable pressure to change course. It underlines the sinister way in which the Eurocrats silence dissent.

Ah, the warm and fluffy blanket of belief. We did see the documents Libertas posted, and they were Libertas membership forms - perhaps the gentlemen that signed them were unaware that signing a Libertas membership form actually meant sponsoring Libertas' application to be recognised as an EP party? Or perhaps they were simply concerned they might be cast aside as soon as they were caught drink-driving - the relations between Libertas and its sponsors do seem a little like a 'marriage of convenience' rather than principle.

As a matter of interest, why Eurocrats? If one is going to believe they were 'got at', could they not have been 'got at' by members of their own parties who were less than delighted to find them supporting a possible competitor?

Last but not least, why oh why were the signatures not notarised? It is normal practice in most of Europe, and it prevents these sort of upsetting upsets later on - which is why it is normal practice.

[OMahonyMunster]

Who pays for peoplekorp's website?

i think its a google blogger site , that is free with a gmail account.

[OMahonyMunster]

Ah, the warm and fluffy blanket of belief. We did see the documents Libertas posted, and they were Libertas membership forms - perhaps the gentlemen that signed them were unaware that signing a Libertas membership form actually meant sponsoring Libertas' application to be recognised as an EP party? Or perhaps they were simply concerned they might be cast aside as soon as they were caught drink-driving - the relations between Libertas and its sponsors do seem a little like a 'marriage of convenience' rather than principle.

As a matter of interest, why Eurocrats? If one is going to believe they were 'got at', could they not have been 'got at' by members of their own parties who were less than delighted to find them supporting a possible competitor?

Last but not least, why oh why were the signatures not notarised? It is normal practice in most of Europe, and it prevents these sort of upsetting upsets later on - which is why it is normal practice.

One says he was pissed and Bonde put some stuff under his face