Why it may be time to consider handing in my Irish passport

[constitutionus]

sucessive irish governments for the last 30yrs have told people that political union WASNT on the cards.

when labour even tried to moot that possibility back in 73 they were excoriated as xenophobes and called nutters.

now its where we are. put simply they cant do it without looking like complete sellouts and liars. thats why if you ask any politician about it, like say dick roche, he''lll avoid it like the plague. twittering on about "pooling sovereignty" instead.

the LAST thing FF and FG want to do is have a real debate about europe and the deconstruction of the irish state.

[richmof]

Here's an alternative vision for you. It's quite Green

http://www.sinnfein.ie/pdf/PostLisbonSu ... LowRes.pdf

Although I disagree with lots of it there is only one thing in this SF submission that is a no-flyer: sticking to Nice voting in Council - it stops enlargement (but maybe the anti-immigration lobby in Ireland wants that?) and maintains the mathematical mess of Nice. However, even if you were able to convince the other MS to renegotiate - which seems unlikely - there is no guarantee that the 26 other MS would agree to all the changes. Remember Lisbon was agreed to by all governments after much tooth-pulling: nobody is going to want to go through that again. Even if they were, it is still the same old re-heated treaty, which I thought was one of the principal thing a lot of the no-campaigners were against in the first place (citing France and the Netherlands).
Either way, at this point, it seems clear the choice is Lisbon pretty much as it is or no Lisbon and a new intergovernmental mess. Its quite possible that the latter is inevitable, so I hope the heads at Iveagh House are coming up with some viable alternatives in this scenario.

[essexboy]

Jamie Smyth - is he a Hun? :mrgreen:

[RBinge]

Jamie Smyth - is he a Hun? :mrgreen:

You are asking if he is a Protestant?

[myksav]

Sigh! Dear Jamie..... might I just point out that, while Ireland is temporarily unpopular over Lisbon, the Brits are perpetually unpopular in Brussels... Part of the reason the Eurocrats are so p!ssed off at us over Lisbon is that they're all cr@pping themselves that "just call me Dave" is going to hit the hot seat in Londres sooner rather than later (Brown is plumbing new poll depths as we speak I'm sure). Cameron is notorious for his "more eurosceptic than thou" attitudes to Europe and I would put even odds on him hitting the EU ejector button. After all, since the Brits signed off on Lisbon, don't they now have a mechanism for pulling out?? I also suspect the Tories/UKIP of funding Libertas. Of course they're delighted to be defending us in Europe, 'twould suit them mightily to have us more dependent on them again and shielded from the EU. Betcha the first thing the Brits would do if they had half a chance is get us to raise our corpo tax..... dunno why everyone on this site was so worried about Lisbon. We speak the same language, we're more likely to be poaching companies from them and the US than anyone else in the EU.....which two countries does Declan Ganley have close links with again??

So, Jamie dear, if you'd like to be popular on the Bruxelles badminton circuit again, by all means trade the Irish travel papers.... but I don't think a UK passport would getcha back in the good books. Anything but!

No, there's no 'pull out' mechanism that Britian could use UNLESS the Lisbon Treaty was ratified by all 27 countries and was implemented. The Lisbon Treaty has to be in operation for the withdrawl clause can be used.

[evercloserunion]

[quote=Universal_001]

What the hell did you think would happen? That they would give us everything we asked for and beg us to say Yes? No, that lot played on the fears of people regarding immigrants, abortion, betrayal of country and all the rest of the nonsense they trotted out.

Are you still trotting out this crap? Nobody cared about abortion.

Of course, because Irish people are known for not caring about abortion.

Since the polls showed a clear majority in favor of legislating in Ireland in line with the x case your overestimating it's importance.
Added to the fact that in all but one poll (a clearly manufactured one) abortion was a non issue for nearly everyone in regards the referendum.[/quote:1msnusbc]
There was also a majority in favour of inserting 40.3.3. Are you denying that we're one of the most conservative peoples in Europe when it comes to abortion?

And how convenient that the poll which disagrees with you is the manufactured one. I think you No voters need a lesson in democracy (can't wait to see the reponses to that!).

In any case, abortion played a much larger part than any poll will show because it undoubtedly contributed to the confusion/don't know factor that was the main reason for the No vote.

[querist]

[
I would rather have actual, legal power and influence rather than this good-slave influence where if we stay behave really nicely we get some crumbs

It is precisely the European Union which has given small Member States like Ireland the actual legal power of a common legislative framework with which to manage their relationships with their larger neighbours. The alternative is to be in the position of the good (or bad) slave. In order to develop this legislative framework all Member States have to build coalitions. Coalition building is easier as an active participant rather than as a a player who takes his ball home.

[Helium Three]

Fair point. The problem is that the rulebook is now being rewritten. And the rewrite moves away from the original concept akin to one country one vote, combined with, often, one country one veto. Supporters of the rewrite are the people saying that it is ok for us to have just around one per cent of the decision making power. Many are unhappy with that idea. They are not all Irish either.

One of the more appealing features of the EEC was its practical acceptance of the wisdom to keep all the members on board with all the big decisions. That is now being ditched. Efficiency is not the only virtue.

[Universal_001]

There was also a majority in favour of inserting 40.3.3. Are you denying that we're one of the most conservative peoples in Europe when it comes to abortion?

Yeh there was , in the 1980s

and yes I am, you'll note there has never been a single direct yes/no to abortion choice put to the people and the 90s referendums showed a trend away from the prolife position, as do the polls lately, definitly conservative about it still, but not in the sense you mean.

And how convenient that the poll which disagrees with you is the manufactured one. I think you No voters need a lesson in democracy (can't wait to see the reponses to that!).

I say manufactured because it was the only one that showed those results, and suddenly abortion and tax jumped 30-40 percentage points higher than they were in the eurobaromater poll...I didn't know a single yes voter, and I never heard abortion, conscription or tax brought up by a single person, that combined with the diffrence with the other polls makes me suspicious, when you screw with methidology it's very easy to change a result.
It's also better to get a second vote if you can say people voted no on the basis of stuff that was not in the treaty, silly things like abortion.

In any case, abortion played a much larger part than any poll will show because it undoubtedly contributed to the confusion/don't know factor that was the main reason for the No vote.

[/quote]
a majority of yes voters didn't know what the treaty was about either, not knowing what it's about does not mean "I knew it was about abortion" because then you WOULD (think you) know what it's about

[MacCoise]

[
I would rather have actual, legal power and influence rather than this good-slave influence where if we stay behave really nicely we get some crumbs

It is precisely the European Union which has given small Member States like Ireland the actual legal power of a common legislative framework with which to manage their relationships with their larger neighbours. The alternative is to be in the position of the good (or bad) slave. In order to develop this legislative framework all Member States have to build coalitions. Coalition building is easier as an active participant rather than as a a player who takes his ball home.

All things made more difficult by Lisbon of course