Why it may be time to consider handing in my Irish passport

[Universal_001]

we did point out that the EU is an intergovernmental deal, and we've just pissed off all the governments

That's even better! The same governments that didn't like the "No" votes on the EU Constitution, who then re-package the constitution into a "treaty" and ramming it down the throats of the people that rejected it? Poetic justice against "all (those) governments". Ireland should vote "no" again, to make it stick this time. If the people don't want it, then "all the governments" need to respect the will of their people, but instead their will is divergent from the people and they are trying to impose that will.

Why can't we vote on Nice again? Because the second time around, we voted the way "all the governments" wanted us to? Spasibo, Tovarish.

The usual suspects will be along, I imagine, to work themselves up into a froth about how we're being "bullied" again. Seriously, lads, did you think this was going to be popular?

Is Ireland in the EU to win popularity contests? Or must they play "follow the leader"?

Stand up, and take the consequences

Eh? What are the consequences supposed to be? Not having our vote respected? Having our rights trampled like those other countries trampled the rights of their people?

Sounds like you're countenancing totalitarianism. Have a closer listen to yourself.

That's what Irish influence is, KN - goodwill (or was). Nothing more - it's not down to our mighty economic clout or huge armies, just to people liking us. Eejit

That's one of the worst insults I've ever seen levied against Ireland. You've reduced Ireland's sovereignty to utter dependence upon "all those governments" and made a de-facto claim that Ireland is a vassal state of the EU. Victory and Salvation!

Eh. And then there's the real world.

Speaking of squandering good will, I wonder how our good will would fare if we just rubber stamped everything we were given, out of fear? Might make them walk all over the smaller states with less clout?

If we go back trembling on our knees saying "sorry we'll behave and do what ere told next time" will they respect us more??*
Why do you think they're throwing this hissy fit? Because that * is exactly what we did with Nice, because it was an accession treaty and we wanted the new states to have as much as we did.
Thats not going to work this time

[ibis]

[quote=Universal_001]

That's what Irish influence is, KN - goodwill (or was). Nothing more - it's not down to our mighty economic clout or huge armies, just to people liking us. Eejit

That's one of the worst insults I've ever seen levied against Ireland. You've reduced Ireland's sovereignty to utter dependence upon "all those governments" and made a de-facto claim that Ireland is a vassal state of the EU. Victory and Salvation!

Eh. And then there's the real world.

Speaking of squandering good will, I wonder how our good will would fare if we just rubber stamped everything we were given, out of fear? Might make them walk all over the smaller states with less clout?

If we go back trembling on our knees saying "sorry we'll behave and do what ere told next time" will they respect us more??*
Why do you think they're throwing this hissy fit? Because that * is exactly what we did with Nice, because it was an accession treaty and we wanted the new states to have as much as we did.
Thats not going to work this time[/quote:3om5yh81]

It might make them respect us less in the morning, but, still, you're failing to distinguish between the goodwill in negotiations, where we're arguing for what we want, and the goodwill in ratifying, which is where we sign the deal we've negotiated.

The problem is that "we the people" do the signing, but "we the government" negotiates on our behalf. When "we the people" turns down what "we the government" has negotiated, it makes the job of "we the government" harder, because people then think that either our government was negotiating in bad faith, or totally failed to sell us on the deal they did.

Unfortunately, that then applies whether or not we agree with what the government has negotiated for us.

All this, really, has very little to do with the EU, but is a problem with our government. They didn't explain what they were doing when they were negotiating the deal, they tried to palm the explaining of it off onto the opposition to save themselves some cash, and as far as I recall, they didn't ask us what we wanted in the first place. There is a democratic deficit in the EU, but it's largely at Leinster House.

Come to that, it's not really us the other EU member states are pissed off at, but our government.

[Al.]

Eh. And then there's the real world

In the real world, what I described actually happened. So wherefore the "and then"?

Speaking of squandering good will, I wonder how our good will would fare if we just rubber stamped everything we were given, out of fear? Might make them walk all over the smaller states with less clout?

What good will was squandered, anyway? I'm still trying to find the good will extended to us when it came to these treaties and referenda. Good will implies that once something is defeated, you don't bring it up again. The Euromonolith has been lavishing ill will upon Ireland instead, looks like to me.

If we go back trembling on our knees saying "sorry we'll behave and do what ere told next time" will they respect us more??

Respect. Very interesting concept. Someone who lived through the Soviet gulags had a very interesting perspective on that:

The enemies of humanity...respect the big fist and nothing else. The harder you slug them, the safer you'll be.

So does this behaviour on the EU's part make them a friend or enemy of humanity? We should be able to discern them by their actions, indeed.

you're failing to distinguish between the goodwill in negotiations, where we're arguing for what we want, and the goodwill in ratifying, which is where we sign the deal we've negotiated

Where was the treaty in question negotiated by the Irish government in particular?

All this, really, has very little to do with the EU, but is a problem with our government. They didn't explain what they were doing when they were negotiating the deal, they tried to palm the explaining of it off onto the opposition to save themselves some cash, and as far as I recall, they didn't ask us what we wanted in the first place

Very little to do with the EU? They resurrected a dead Constitution, and apart from Ireland, none of the populace of the member states got to vote on it, not even the people of the city it was named after (and there were loads of protests against it in that city). The populace that rejected it had it forced upon them, until the populace of Ireland stopped it.

The EU has never asked the people what they want. Every time the EU tries to force their will on the people and gives them a choice in the matter, the people say "no", but that's not good enough for the EU.

So, when are we going to vote on the Treaty of Nice again?

There is a democratic deficit in the EU, but it's largely at Leinster House

You mis-spelled the EU Commission. Leinster House, to their credit, gave Ireland the opportunity to vote on the TOL.

Come to that, it's not really us the other EU member states are pissed off at, but our government

Who cares who is pissed off at anyone in Ireland? Ireland didn't fight for its freedom so it can worry about "piss(ing) off" foreign governments on the Continent who are trying to insinuate themselves into our business.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Good riddance. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

It's telling that the 'problems' she mentions relate to politicians having to answer for denying their peoples a vote on this treaty. Sortof makes me feel proud to have stood up for democracy in Europe, which is the real pro-European stance. We are closer to Boston than Berlin anyway so I'll shed no tears. Let the bureaucrats cry into their snails if it irks them so much. The Irish will not eat cake.

[diddleydoo]

If a little political hullabaloo like this make someone give up their passport then that reeks of a very greedy and selfish character.

Like, as soon as I'm not benefiting from the general public opinion if the Irish, getting invited to parties and all, then I'll have to, like give it all up. I mean, it's playing HAVOC with my social life don't you know..... Next thing people will actually pay attention to MY character, and not the overly-positive "Oirish" stereotype which has been going around for decades. Just IMAGINE...

Good riddance. We could do with few less of your sort.

Shane.

[Helium Three]

As Jamie has found out, keen badminton players will do anything to get an edge.

Apart from worrying about Jamie's little local difficulty on the court, it is hard to sympathise with the Germans for being so upset at losing the extra power, the Spaniards for losing their extra four seats in the EP, or the French for having their hubris exposed.

And anyone bellyaching about the prospect of having to ask their countryfolk's consent to having their form of governance changed should just be shown the door.

[MacCoise]

The title of the article is fairly silly but do you have a problem with the content? Do you think there has been no negative comment on the Irish No vote?

The "problem" seems to be that the vote has sparked a wave of democratic debate across Europe. I can live with that

[MacCoise]

The title of the article is fairly silly but do you have a problem with the content? Do you think there has been no negative comment on the Irish No vote?

Portugal is pissed off with us because the Treaty was named after their capital? Boo hoo. The guy is only talking about the other eurofanatics he socialises with

exactly, they could always have referendums to show how much their peoples really, really, really want lisbon

[TradCat]

I would never believe an anecdote from a journalist. I'm not saying they are all lazy liars but I have enough experience of those that are to refuse to accept any on them on trust. This idiotic piece of scribbling is part of the softening up process for Lisbon II. I think it will all backfire.

[twtone]

I've heard that 18 somethings in Dublin often show their passports in order to buy drink or get into a club, but why does this fellow Smith have to show his passport to get into parties?