Kenny rules out support for Dail ratification

[Helium Three]

So what do the Greens think?

John Gormley says no decision on the ratification process has been made yet. Although the article speculates partial legislative approval is an option.

So this might well be on the cards.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlidmhkfcw/

That article starts with this:

The leader of the Green Party says no firm decision has been agreed in Government yet as to whether or not the Lisbon Treaty will be passed by referendum or by legislation.

That implies that these are the only two options, which would mean that actually carrying out the people's mandate is not even on the agenda. Maybe the journalist was not paying attention. Is there any other explanation?

[eurosceptic]

We will just have to give them a bigger kick up the backside to teach them manners. They are supposed to represent the irish people not be agents of brussels.

[FutureTaoiseach]

[quote=Helium Three]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlidmhkfcw/[/url]

That article starts with this:

The leader of the Green Party says no firm decision has been agreed in Government yet as to whether or not the Lisbon Treaty will be passed by referendum or by legislation.

That implies that these are the only two options, which would mean that actually carrying out the people's mandate is not even on the agenda. Maybe the journalist was not paying attention. Is there any other explanation?[/quote:3gfxrifb]


Gormley's remarks are totally inadequate. He should rule out supporting the legislative route fullstop. If the Greens support parliamentary ratification, then they face the same meltdown as the PDs.

[myksav]

Lisbon 2 will happen whether they like's it or not because the Eu institutions needs to move on and ireland must ratify it anyway.

Must we, now? Why?

Since when did Ireland become a dictatorship?

[Magror14]

Lisbon 2 will happen whether they like's it or not because the Eu institutions needs to move on and ireland must ratify it anyway.

Must we, now? Why?

Since when did Ireland become a dictatorship?

Myksav, he/she is right. The institutions need reform and we are going to be drawn into the process one way or another even if it means joining the second tier. Enough of the dictatorship nonsense.

Before you come back and say 'why the need for reform/' because all countries in Europe agree that the EU needs reform.

[FutureTaoiseach]

Lisbon 2 will happen whether they like's it or not because the Eu institutions needs to move on and ireland must ratify it anyway.

Must we, now? Why?

Since when did Ireland become a dictatorship?

Myksav, he/she is right. The institutions need reform and we are going to be drawn into the process one way or another even if it means joining the second tier. Enough of the dictatorship nonsense.

Before you come back and say 'why the need for reform/' because all countries in Europe agree that the EU needs reform.

It is dictatorship to force something on a nation that its people have rejected, as in France and Holland. It would equally be dictatorship if Lisbon is forced on us without our direct consent via referendum. We don't have to do anything regarding this Treaty. It is not Ireland that is isolated in Europe but the political-elites who are isolated from the people of Europe who do not want this Treaty.

[myksav]

Lisbon 2 will happen whether they like's it or not because the Eu institutions needs to move on and ireland must ratify it anyway.

Must we, now? Why?

Since when did Ireland become a dictatorship?

Myksav, he/she is right. The institutions need reform and we are going to be drawn into the process one way or another even if it means joining the second tier. Enough of the dictatorship nonsense.

Before you come back and say 'why the need for reform/' because all countries in Europe agree that the EU needs reform.

Wasn't going to ask why reform, it's evident it needs some amount of reform. It can be extremely inefficient, very unaccountable, bureaucratically top-heavy, not even-handed in operating and becoming more of a political union than an economic union.
The problem is, what form of reform is to take place. We differ in how it should be reformed and into what. I would prefer it to reform to an economic union, you, it seems, would prefer a more political union, á la Lisbon.

SE said Ireland must ratify it or the institutions could not move on. First things first, the word 'must' as a verb is a word to do with compulsion, being compelled. It just raises my hackles. That's the why of my dictatorship rhetorical question.
On the institiutions, I disagree with SE on the connection between Lisbon and the ability to reform the institutions of the EU. The Treaty was designed to reform the basic meaning and structure of the EU, to my thinking not necessary, rather than enabling the reforms needed to the institutions of the EU. That reform could be done within the existing framework of the EU.

[SUIL EILE]

The EU institutions are working just fine. Lisbon is only needed for the EU to become a political and military heavyweight. Which i for one dont want to happen.

Why ?

To be honest it's absolute that disaproved is going to happened anyway.

[Magror14]

Lisbon 2 will happen whether they like's it or not because the Eu institutions needs to move on and ireland must ratify it anyway.

Must we, now? Why?

Since when did Ireland become a dictatorship?

Myksav, he/she is right. The institutions need reform and we are going to be drawn into the process one way or another even if it means joining the second tier. Enough of the dictatorship nonsense.

Before you come back and say 'why the need for reform/' because all countries in Europe agree that the EU needs reform.

Wasn't going to ask why reform, it's evident it needs some amount of reform. It can be extremely inefficient, very unaccountable, bureaucratically top-heavy, not even-handed in operating and becoming more of a political union than an economic union.
The problem is, what form of reform is to take place. We differ in how it should be reformed and into what. I would prefer it to reform to an economic union, you, it seems, would prefer a more political union, á la Lisbon.

SE said Ireland must ratify it or the institutions could not move on. First things first, the word 'must' as a verb is a word to do with compulsion, being compelled. It just raises my hackles. That's the why of my dictatorship rhetorical question.
On the institiutions, I disagree with SE on the connection between Lisbon and the ability to reform the institutions of the EU. The Treaty was designed to reform the basic meaning and structure of the EU, to my thinking not necessary, rather than enabling the reforms needed to the institutions of the EU. That reform could be done within the existing framework of the EU.

Two things there, Myksav.

First, if the current financial and economic meltdown has shown us nothing else it is that you cannot divorce economics from politics. The US has had a hands off approach to economics for the last twenty years and politicians are now having to pick up the pieces. Economics and political institutions go together like a horse and carraige. The fundamental difference between the EU and every other supranational experiment is that economic integration is the bedrock of the EU. Maintaining that integration requires workable political institutions.

Second, I completely disagree that Lisbon reformed the basic meaning and structure of the EU. At a most basic level none of the institutions were removed or altered in a major way. Everyone seems to underestimate the challenge to the EU in the accession of so many states who had been on a long vacation from democracy. In my view Lisbon was designed to prevent the EU from disbanding. It specifically was not designed to achieve further political integration but rather to prevent the EU from drifting apart.

To that extent,(and just to keep the Mods happy) Ireland was within its rights to have a parliamentary ratification.